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id="thebody" style="defaultCaption">Robert
Ess: Some people may know as we started 1-XIt
had a different name back thenWe had an initial management
structure that was very similar To the Constellation program
management structure.
That is, the people who were making the first stage<p
begin="00:00:13.133" end="00:00:16.500">Booster part were part of the First Stage office<p
begin="00:00:16.000" end="00:00:17.633">Were part of the Ares project.<p begin="00:00:17.833"
end="00:00:22.766">And people who were doing the avionicsWere
part of the Ares project.
People who were doing the ground part <p begin="00:00:25.100"
end="00:00:26.533">Were part of the Ground Ops project.And
because the reporting chain was through the established projects<p begin="00:00:30.600"
end="00:00:34.533">It was a very difficult thing to put your arm around <p begin="00:00:34.133"
end="00:00:35.633">And say this is Ares 1-X.What
you saw was this was the path for Ares 1-XThe
first stage, and here’s the path for the main line.You
know, Constellation part for first stage.
And the same with upper stage, same with avionics.<p
begin="00:00:44.166" end="00:00:45.766">So you could see how it was working out.<p
begin="00:00:45.900" end="00:00:50.000">But the first- the Ares folks therefore would
have theirPerspective on how it should fit together.<p begin="00:00:52.366"
end="00:00:54.333">What the right step forward would be.Which
would be different than on the ground side.We're
kind of going through their chain.
We didn’t have any integrating function<p
begin="00:01:00.233" end="00:01:02.533">From a management point of view to say<p begin="00:01:02.366"
end="00:01:04.966">"No, I’m responsible for it, I’ll pull it together.<p begin="00:01:04.500"
end="00:01:05.933">And I’ll make the call."Even
though that may not make you happy.You
know, we got to do what’s best for the system.
So we followed the Constellation process <p
begin="00:01:11.000" end="00:01:13.533">And that slowed us down a lot.
And decisions weren'tBeing made and we'd talk
about a lot of things.So we had to reorganize
in a way That was very, very focused.
And very efficient.Billy Stover: So in April
of '07, a lean event was called by senior management.Champion
was Dan Dunbacher.
And they sequestered a group ofI want to say it was twelve
or fifteen of us That kind of represented
the different parts of 1-X and said"Hey,
you know, we’re not getting where we need to be.What
do we need to do?"And from that event, we
came up with the IPTs.We streamlined things down
fromThere were processes that were requiring ten panels
To get a decision to basically three.
We really looked at what our goal was<p begin="00:01:59.933"
end="00:02:03.266">What we needed to get there, and then we reorganized.<p begin="00:02:03.400"
end="00:02:06.766">Robert Ess: And we started with a clean board, saying, "What do
we need?" And said, "Okay, we
need someone who provides the hardware.Someone’s
got to provide a first stage.
Someone’s got to provide an upper stage."<p
begin="00:02:11.600" end="00:02:13.533">And etcetera, etcetera for all the hardware providers.
Then we said, "We need someone to do the integrating."<p
begin="00:02:18.200" end="00:02:21.500">And we said, "That’s basically all you
need is, you know.Is the person in charge
of the project is the person Who provides- is people
who provide all the hardware.And there's the entity
that integrates all those together."And
that became our org structure.It was as flat as you possibly
could draw it.Jeff Campbell: They reorganized
the whole project so that each IPT Had
their own budget, their own schedule authority.That
seemed to me, make things run a lot smoother.Up
until that point, you asked for a change.
And it may take months of just telecon after telecon.
So the important lesson learned there for me<p
begin="00:02:48.566" end="00:02:50.666">From my perspective, was you have to have <p
begin="00:02:50.200" end="00:02:52.066">A strong SE&I up front.
You have to have an SE&I that has, you know<p
begin="00:02:55.900" end="00:02:59.400">The technical authority as well as an integrated
schedule Across IPTs that all the IPTs have to adhere to<p
begin="00:03:04.200" end="00:03:07.900">And, you know, honor.
Even at the end Of the project, there was
still some disconnects.But I think overall they
had finally gotten To the point where they
had an integrated schedule Where all the IPTs fed
into that.
They understood the right milestones.<p begin="00:03:18.200"
end="00:03:20.400">And so they were all on the same sheet of music.<p begin="00:03:20.300"
end="00:03:23.500">But until they reorganized that, they didn’t.<p begin="00:03:23.100"
end="00:03:25.500">So you know, if you’re going to do this again<p begin="00:03:25.466"
end="00:03:27.766">Up front, you’ve got to get SE&I involved.<p begin="00:03:28.066"
end="00:03:31.633">You know, SE&I traditionally is, what are my loads?<p begin="00:03:31.400"
end="00:03:33.800">What’s my trajectory?
Those type things.But also in, you know,
what Shuttle would call Level Two They also maintained the
overall project schedule And the overall project
budget.And so to me, I think, that was important.<p
begin="00:03:46.133" end="00:03:49.166">Carol Scott: When you’re working within a big
program.And it is- it has a lot on its plate.
It’s got lots to do.
That it's very hard to go And get the attention that
you need To go work on this test flight.
So it's Very advantageous to you to have this focus team
That’s set up just to work on the test flight.<p
begin="00:04:09.800" end="00:04:13.500">It’s out of the bureaucracy of the big program
And what it’s trying to get accomplished.
And it’s got a direct link back to the program
manager So that he knows that this is his team <p
begin="00:04:21.200" end="00:04:22.500">That’s working it.
And it relieves some of that work off of him <p
begin="00:04:25.200" end="00:04:28.033">So that he can stay focused on the big picture.
But your team can stay focused <p begin="00:04:30.133"
end="00:04:32.500">Just on what you’re trying to do.
Your team has got accountability from budgets,
decision, technical, schedule.You have all that authority
to go make your job happen.Robert Ess: So it made
the lines of communication very clear.
Each of the IPT leads who then were reporting back
Through their projects, back through Constellation
Now reported to the project manager directly <p
begin="00:04:54.433" end="00:04:56.966">As did the integration lead.
And if there was a problemThere was one meeting to
go to, there was one control board.And
by doing that, it was always acknowledged What
that forum is and who to talk to.
And so our efficiency of communication<p begin="00:05:05.900"
end="00:05:07.700">Which is the key to any project management<p begin="00:05:07.566"
end="00:05:10.933">But our efficiency to communication increased dramatically.
We went to a very, very flat organizational structure.<p
begin="00:05:13.766" end="00:05:16.666">And there was one control board for the whole
mission.It was our Ares 1-X control board, we called
it the XCB.
That way, made all the decisions based on all the
requirements.Had all the cost, schedule, and technical risk
authority That was delegated, you know, by the Constellation
program manager.And by doing that, things
happened quickly.
We get together With the right folks.
It was one meeting.
You made the decision, you pressed on.<p begin="00:05:36.533"
end="00:05:38.066">There was not a separate board to go to.
There was not other, you know, factors happen <p
begin="00:05:40.133" end="00:05:43.566">In the background.
So that change to the organizational structureWas
very enabling for Ares 1-X.Bruce Askins: The way that
our vehicle was organized in the organizational structure It
was set up as a very flat organization Where
the XCB or mission manager Had the authority to decide
whether a yes or no On pretty much any of the
stances Or any of the decisions that needed to be made.
It made it very efficient for us moving forward
vastly.Had we not had that, we probably <p begin="00:06:10.700"
end="00:06:13.366">Wouldn’t have flown when we did.
It alsoCut down a lot of people trying to re-open issues.<p
begin="00:06:17.833" end="00:06:20.866">Because once the issue had actually been set<p
begin="00:06:21.066" end="00:06:24.733">People agreed that was where it was supposed to be.
Also, since we were brought in from many different
centersWe worked as a badge-less, center-less team.<p
begin="00:06:32.533" end="00:06:35.400">And our mission manager enforced that dramatically
Through the XCB.
We worked- we were all Ares 1-X.We were not part of the
centers at that point.Robert Ess: There was always
a concern that by having one board That
you’d overload that board.
And if you wanted To get something to that
board, that you’d have toYou know, it would take
a while.It would be a bottleneck.
And the companion way Of doing it is to add another
board.
To take care of a triage, so to speak.
Those items that didn’t need <p begin="00:07:00.300"
end="00:07:02.600">To go to the senior board.
As we talked through that, we came to the conclusion
Was the fact that you really have- it’s really
The same people who go to that subordinate board
Except for the project manager.
So it sounds good on paper.
And you can handle all of these things <p
begin="00:07:13.066" end="00:07:16.166">At a quote lower level, but it’s still the
IPT leads Going to that meeting at the subordinate board.
So instead of having the meeting over here <p
begin="00:07:21.133" end="00:07:22.700">At the XCB, you have it over here <p begin="00:07:22.466"
end="00:07:23.600">At the subordinate board.
Does that save you anything or not?
And the conclusion We came to was no, let’s
just do it once.And if it gets to the point
that we’re overloadedThen we’ll talk about
adding a subordinate board.And we never did add a
subordinate boardWe just had more meetings.<p
begin="00:07:35.500" end="00:07:39.066">So our XCBs did get a little oppressive at times.
Sometimes they’d go from eight in the morning until
ten at night.And we'd go through, you know, a dozen different
items.So there were times when it was tough.
It was harder to get something through.<p
begin="00:07:47.933" end="00:07:49.833">But the good thing about our pace is that <p
begin="00:07:49.866" end="00:07:52.600">Instead of the meeting on Tuesday, you know<p
begin="00:07:52.100" end="00:07:54.200">You could have a meeting on Thursday, two days
laterTo get your item through.<p begin="00:07:56.366"
end="00:07:57.900">So whatever bottleneck that we sawThe
bottleneck was measured in days, not weeks or months Like
you may see on some other program structure.As
we got closer and closer to operationsWe
found these specialty topics, so to speakThat
only included a handful of folks.
So we created three other boards as time went
on To handle these focused topics.
One had to do with our instrumentation<p begin="00:08:18.666"
end="00:08:20.600">Development flight instrumentation, or DFI.And
it was always a little annoying.
This was a broken wire.
This sensor isn't working.Or a test isn’t coming
out right.That because of our single board structure <p
begin="00:08:29.566" end="00:08:32.566">Would bubble up to the XCB for a decision.<p
begin="00:08:32.866" end="00:08:35.166">Well that was not the right level of information<p
begin="00:08:35.233" end="00:08:37.500">Right level of topic<p begin="00:08:37.633"
end="00:08:39.200">That the XCB should be talking about.<p begin="00:08:38.900"
end="00:08:41.033">It just has to do with the wire for instrumentation<p begin="00:08:40.600"
end="00:08:42.033">It’s not mandatory.So
we created the separate control board Basically
said, just deal with it.
You talk about all that day-to-day <p begin="00:08:46.333"
end="00:08:48.166">Miscellaneous stuff with sensors.And
if you get to the point Where you have a big system
problem Or an overall issue with our DFI suite<p
begin="00:08:53.766" end="00:08:55.400">Then bring it up to the XCB<p begin="00:08:55.166"
end="00:08:56.033">And we’ll talk about it.But
do all you can to handle itYou know, on your own.
That worked great.
I mean, it really took the XCBTook all of the DFI stuff
out of the XCBAnd allowed us to concentrate
on big areas Like making sure that the loads are right.
And making sure our vehicle is integrated properly.<p
begin="00:09:10.433" end="00:09:12.933">That’s the important stuff.
We also created a board About processing problems.
There’d be a problem on the floorDidn’t
have the right paperwork or a nut wouldn’t fit Or
something like that.
And we didn’t want to deal with the XCB<p
begin="00:09:21.966" end="00:09:24.566">We wanted decisions like on the floor real time.
So we created what we called the TXRB<p begin="00:09:27.000"
end="00:09:28.900">Which is basically just a processing board.<p begin="00:09:29.100"
end="00:09:31.866">And our chief engineer at KSC chaired that board.<p begin="00:09:32.000"
end="00:09:34.000">And it was his responsibility to solve those problems <p begin="00:09:33.733"
end="00:09:36.166">As fast as he can.
Mostly it was measuring hoursWhen we had a problem as
to when you solved it.So we evolved from the
one structure into one structure With a couple very focused
boards to handle day-to-dayNear real time kind of
decisions.
Now the lessons learned for us <p begin="00:09:48.666"
end="00:09:50.066">While that worked out really wellWe
established those boards pretty late in the game.And
essentially one week we were doing the XCBAnother
week we said okay Now here’s the new board,
just go use it.
For some folks that was too much of a change <p
begin="00:10:00.300" end="00:10:02.900">Too quickly as to what that board’s responsibility
wasHow the process worked<p begin="00:10:03.800"
end="00:10:06.300">All the configuration management aspects of it.<p begin="00:10:06.233"
end="00:10:09.233">So to do it again, we’d start with one board.<p begin="00:10:09.900"
end="00:10:13.100">We would establish on paper these other subordinate boards.
And say there’s point and a time <p begin="00:10:14.200"
end="00:10:15.466">We’re going to use this board.It’s
not today, but when we do it Here’s how it’s going
to beHere’s the charter, here’s how we’re going to
handle CM.And therefore people know what’s coming <p
begin="00:10:21.866" end="00:10:23.266">And it’s not a surprise as to how <p begin="00:10:23.100"
end="00:10:25.966">We’re going to go do it.
The discussion is Just when are we actually
enact those boards.That would have been smoother
for the team If we said the DFI, you know<p begin="00:10:30.666"
end="00:10:32.966">Control board is going to start six months from now.<p begin="00:10:33.066"
end="00:10:34.966">And here’s how it’s going to happen.
We did a lot of just in time stuff.
We realized that we needed it, so we started
it.
But again, to do it all over again <p begin="00:10:39.400"
end="00:10:40.900">The more you can plan for your Evolution
of your board structure, the better.
When we first started off setting this up with
1-X After a new re-org part of it<p begin="00:10:48.900"
end="00:10:50.900">We had two deputies.
And franklyThere were some politics involved, you know.<p
begin="00:10:52.400" end="00:10:55.666">I was a Johnson Space Center person.
Having somebody who Represented Marshall Space
Flight Center, where Most of the stuff was being
designed, made sense.
Having somebody at Kennedy Space Center <p begin="00:11:01.833"
end="00:11:03.433">Where everything was going to end up And
have a big heath of operations made sense.So
that kind of made a lot of folks happyOverall
in the Constellation program, if they can seeKind
of like, their person is there.But the reality of it<p
begin="00:11:13.200" end="00:11:15.666">That really was not the motivating factor.
It was the fact that being either at JSC <p
begin="00:11:18.600" end="00:11:20.000">Or when I was at Langley<p begin="00:11:20.300"
end="00:11:22.400">There’s a lot of day-to-day stuff that happens <p begin="00:11:22.200"
end="00:11:24.433">That people want to talk to the project manager for.<p begin="00:11:24.400"
end="00:11:26.066">So having a deputy at Marshall Space Flight Center <p begin="00:11:26.666"
end="00:11:28.333">Really made a big deal.
They could walk over to, you know, this person<p
begin="00:11:30.166" end="00:11:32.200">Steve Davis, and just talk about things.
It may not be worth going to an XCB control board.
It may not be worth, you know<p begin="00:11:35.633"
end="00:11:37.066">Elevating to me and saying this is a big deal.<p begin="00:11:37.266"
end="00:11:39.066">But just, you know, I’m not sure about this.<p begin="00:11:39.000"
end="00:11:41.366">You know, I’m curious about this.
And having somebody That would listen, and
the deputies did a great job Of filtering out what stuff-
They'd say"Hey, this is a big deal.
This is the second Or third time I’ve heard
about this concern.
Let’s talk about it." <p begin="00:11:49.300"
end="00:11:50.833">Or they would handle it on themselves <p begin="00:11:50.566"
end="00:11:53.066">If it was just an isolated incident or something unique.<p begin="00:11:53.433"
end="00:11:55.666">And so one of the things we tried hard not to do <p begin="00:11:55.333"
end="00:11:58.333">Was make our deputies a deputy for the vehicle <p begin="00:11:58.800"
end="00:12:00.633">And a deputy for the ground operations.
Because that puts us to kind of divide that <p
begin="00:12:03.300" end="00:12:05.000">You know, now we have these two structures.<p
begin="00:12:04.633" end="00:12:06.700">All the ground ops guys report to this deputy.<p
begin="00:12:07.000" end="00:12:08.966">All the vehicle guys report through this deputy.
We ought to separate our project, I thought<p
begin="00:12:11.000" end="00:12:12.200">And put a line in the middle.<p begin="00:12:12.100"
end="00:12:14.166">So we were very clear to say our deputies <p begin="00:12:14.066"
end="00:12:17.233">Are my deputies, and they can talk about any topic.<p begin="00:12:17.900"
end="00:12:20.066">One happens to live at Marshall Space Flight Center.<p begin="00:12:19.700"
end="00:12:21.300">One happens to live at Kennedy Space Center.<p begin="00:12:21.933"
end="00:12:23.166">But there were times when there was A
topic related to the vehicle and my deputyWho
happened to be at Kennedy Space CenterWas
the one in charge to go Solve that problem and
vice versa.And because I wanted two people who are equal
deputies That could solve any problem, who happened to have
Different centers behind them.<p begin="00:12:38.666"
end="00:12:41.600">But not a vehicle person and a ground person.
And so the org part of it for 1-X <p begin="00:12:42.933"
end="00:12:47.133">Was really careful about interfaces and layers.<p begin="00:12:47.833"
end="00:12:48.866">And all those are bad.
So we wanted to minimize the number of layers.<p
begin="00:12:50.700" end="00:12:52.100">So we had a very flat organization.<p begin="00:12:52.000"
end="00:12:54.000">The manager and the hardware providers.And
that was it.
At Constellation they like to sayLevel two, level three,
level four.
And we banned those phrases.<p begin="00:13:00.400"
end="00:13:02.366">You cannot say level two or level three within 1-X <p begin="00:13:02.200"
end="00:13:04.133">Without being chastised.
Because once you do thatYou just create a line.<p
begin="00:13:05.233" end="00:13:07.500">You drew a line in the org chart which doesn’t
really exist.
You do this, and I do this.<p begin="00:13:09.300"
end="00:13:11.466">And you can’t do this and I can’t do that.<p begin="00:13:11.266"
end="00:13:13.566">But we couldn’t handle that.
We just had a team.And you’re providing
the service and this person's integrating And
this person makes the final decision.And
there’s no levels there.It’s just part of the
integrated team.The other part of it is
interfaces.
Every time youYou know, create an organization
or Box as an organization chart, you create interface.
So one thing to be careful of with a flat org
chartIt becomes wide.Now
you have all these different kind of interfaces.But
we wanted to make sure We didn’t create these
interfaces And someone to manage the interface and someone
to Make sure that you integrate the management of
the interfaces.
Pretty soon you go in this big circle <p begin="00:13:43.633"
end="00:13:45.900">Of all these people getting involved doing stuff<p begin="00:13:46.166"
end="00:13:47.433">Just generic stuff, you know.People
who integrate and facilitate and coordinate.
If that’s your job title, you probably need
to find A better job.
Because by org structure You can get rid of a lot
of that stuff.
You have the people who are empowered <p begin="00:13:57.233"
end="00:13:59.733">To make a decision, you know, in a box.<p begin="00:13:59.333"
end="00:14:01.333">Say okay, you’re in charge of this, period.<p begin="00:14:01.500"
end="00:14:04.166">You know, make the call.
So the org structure Really determines how big
your organization has to be From a project management
point of view.Determines how many people
you have in staff positions Or administrative positions,
just kind of Keeping tabs of an other organization.
And once you start doing that, you realize <p
begin="00:14:17.833" end="00:14:20.500">You must have taken a wrong turn somewhere.
If you have a lot of folks whose sole job <p
begin="00:14:22.600" end="00:14:24.433">Is to worry about what other folks are doing<p
begin="00:14:24.633" end="00:14:27.200">But not having the responsibility to make a difference.
So in an SE&I world we wanted <p begin="00:14:30.400"
end="00:14:32.200">And we evolved into this, but it took a while <p begin="00:14:32.633"
end="00:14:36.100">Was interface managers that were really interface managers.<p
begin="00:14:36.000" end="00:14:38.566">Not a book manager for the first stage upper stage.<p
begin="00:14:38.766" end="00:14:40.066">Not someone who goes to the meetings <p begin="00:14:40.033"
end="00:14:42.333">And sees the first stage guys are talking to <p begin="00:14:41.433"
end="00:14:44.333">Upper stage guys.
But someone says you’re the guy Who makes the call between<p
begin="00:14:44.833" end="00:14:47.300">First stage and upper stage, you manage that interface.<p
begin="00:14:47.400" end="00:14:49.833">You don’t integrate and coordinate and facilitate.<p
begin="00:14:50.066" end="00:14:51.933">You know, that’s what you do to get there.<p
begin="00:14:51.933" end="00:14:53.100">But in the end you say <p begin="00:14:52.966"
end="00:14:54.200">And here’s what we’re going to go do.<p begin="00:14:54.633"
end="00:14:56.233">And for our projectFor
Constellation, for other projects, you knowInitially
you tend to put people who are more detail-orientedGood
at, you know, maybe documenting the writing To
be the book managers for a particular interface.
And what you need are people <p begin="00:15:10.366"
end="00:15:13.200">Who are mini-project managers, to manage that interface.
If there’s 180 bolts between your piece and
their pieceThere’s a lot of issues to talk about.
What kind of bolts, how big they are.<p begin="00:15:18.666"
end="00:15:19.933">The thread, the pre-load.You
know, the interface, metal to metal contact.
Someone has to make calls on all of those.<p begin="00:15:23.866"
end="00:15:26.900">And often the call is not beneficial to a particular IPT.<p begin="00:15:26.866"
end="00:15:27.766">They got to make a change.
They got to change their material.<p begin="00:15:29.966"
end="00:15:32.200">They got to do an extra test, they got to do something.<p begin="00:15:32.433"
end="00:15:35.000">And so you need somebody who is empowered to say<p begin="00:15:35.400"
end="00:15:38.033">And you can give them the authority, "This is my job.<p begin="00:15:37.800"
end="00:15:40.100">I own this interface, and here’s what I recommend."<p begin="00:15:40.700"
end="00:15:42.766">Or recommend to me, but decide to those folks <p begin="00:15:42.700"
end="00:15:43.633">And if those folks say"Hey,
wait a minute.
You just cost me, you knowTen million dollars and
six months of a schedule slip."Then
we elevate up to a higher level.Now it’s a cost-schedule
issue that I would get involved in.But
the best you canLet people actively manage
with authority Your key interfaces and
not just make them book managers.Jon Cowart: That was so
big and that’s What I really loved about
our flat organizational structure.It was not far from Bob
Ess, our mission managerIt wasn’t far down to
the person On the floor, turning the wrench.<p begin="00:16:11.933"
end="00:16:15.633">And when you have that and when you have the <p begin="00:16:15.066"
end="00:16:17.633">Mission manager and deputy mission managers traveling around<p begin="00:16:17.600"
end="00:16:20.533">Going to see people, being there, you get to know them.
It short-circuits a lot of stuff that <p
begin="00:16:22.666" end="00:16:25.166">In a large program, might fester.<p begin="00:16:25.400"
end="00:16:27.266">People wondering well, why are we doing that?
Well if you see the deputy mission manager <p
begin="00:16:29.666" end="00:16:31.866">Or the mission manager himself on the floor<p
begin="00:16:31.966" end="00:16:34.566">Every day and when we got to KSC you did.<p
begin="00:16:34.300" end="00:16:36.533">You saw all three of us there, every day.<p
begin="00:16:36.600" end="00:16:38.600">You can short-circuit some of that stuff.<p
begin="00:16:38.233" end="00:16:40.900">It is just really huge.
And you’re talking to people.And the talk has to go
up and down.Billy Stover: When you needed an answer or a decision<p
begin="00:16:47.533" end="00:16:51.066">Basically you knew you were within three meetings <p
begin="00:16:51.300" end="00:16:55.300">Or three people of getting “That’s the decision.”
Maybe the downside of that is you might not<p
begin="00:17:02.433" end="00:17:06.066">Have always necessarily gotten all the data you
needed.
But on a test flight program, you know<p begin="00:17:08.466"
end="00:17:10.700">Our philosophy was, you knowBetter
is the enemy of good enough.And because we had a very
small timeframeWe were getting a small
window, you know, we basically Had two and a half years
from April of 2007.
Well it was two years originally, until April of
2009 To finish designing a rocket, building the components<p
begin="00:17:34.966" end="00:17:36.900">Assembling the components, testing them and <p begin="00:17:36.600"
end="00:17:38.166">Putting it out on the launch pad to launch.<p begin="00:17:39.833"
end="00:17:42.766">So you had to be more accessible.And
that’s the other thing about having a linear management.Typically
that makes you more accessible.
So you can- people are able to get problems <p
begin="00:17:52.266" end="00:17:55.200">To the right level much faster.
So, the issue with that, though, is sometimes
those people Become overwhelmed.
So you’ve got to find that balance and<p
begin="00:18:06.633" end="00:18:10.200">You know, so that’s kind of maybe the downside
of Flattening the management organization too much.<p
begin="00:18:14.166" end="00:18:17.033">But the lessons from that though is, is I think<p
begin="00:18:16.900" end="00:18:20.400">This is where we as an agency, I think, are trying
to go.If we flatten our organization, that means we
should Allow the people at the lower levels more degree
of Authority and freedom to make some decisions <p
begin="00:18:31.166" end="00:18:33.400">That maybe now right now we’re pushing up.