PAUL JAY: Welcome to the Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay.
The Greek people, 61 percent of those who voted in the referendum on Sunday, said no
to the austerity package that had been proposed by the European Troika, as it's called. That's
the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund.
Well, they said no to that package, but it's not entirely clear what the Greek people are
willing to say yes to.
Now joining us to help us answer that question is Costas Lapavitsas. He's a professor of
economics at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies. He was elected
at the top of the list as a Syriza MP in January, and he recently co-authored the book Against
the Troika with Heiner Flassbeck. He now joins us from his constituency in Greek Macedonia.
Thanks so much for joining us, Costas.
COSTAS LAPAVITSAS: It's a pleasure to be with you, Paul.
JAY: So before we get into what's next, let's just talk about the moment. Even just a little
bit from a personal angle, I know you've been in the midst of this struggle for many years,
for long before you were elected as an MP. You've been critical to some extent of Syriza's
negotiations and how things have been proceeding. What did that moment mean, for you?
LAPAVITSAS: There's no question this is a historic moment. No question at all. It's
a historic moment for Greece, and it's a historic moment for Europe. This is a moment when all
these tensions and problems and most things that have characterized Europe the last few
years, they're all coming to a head, and there's going to be resolution. Not in the next few
days, but certainly the next few weeks. So it's a historic moment, for sure. We're going
to know which way the European monetary union is going to go, and which way the European
Union is going to go.
JAY: Now, in terms of the results of the vote, it's clear that the will of the Greek people
was against that austerity package. Against an enormous pressure through the media and
threats that it was going to lead to disaster if people voted no. I know there were television
commercials and pundits on television talking about the total collapse of the Greek economy
and how much all of a sudden they were so worried about ordinary working people, the
same people that couldn't give a damn about wages and pensions are all of a sudden so
worried about it.
But the Greek people were not intimidated.
LAPAVITSAS: I have to say that this is one of those moments when it does feel good to
be the Greek. You know, one can feel proud. Because the last few years and the last few
months, have been years of very great difficulty. No one likes to be begging others for money,
if you see what I mean. No one likes to feel that his country and his people are in such
dire straits that they're at the mercy of others.
This week has been an extraordinary week. The pressures internally and the pressures
internationally have been--I've never seen the like. The only thing that Greeks were
not threatened with was a mass outbreak of syphilis in [disguise] if they voted no. And
they said no. They said no. They basically stood their ground and said no, we're not
going to have it. We're not going to accept the old ways. We want something different.
We might not be entirely clear what it is, but we're perfectly clear that if we go the
way of the lenders, that's no future at all.
And the most dramatic thing was that actually this was said by the youth. What made the
big difference this time is that the youth said no. That's the first time they've spoken
since the beginning of the crisis, and they said no.
JAY: Now, Monday morning finance minister Varoufakis resigned. Did that surprise you?
What significance does it have?
LAPAVITSAS: Yanis Varoufakis has had a mixed record during these five and a half months.
I've known Yanis for a long time. I've got respect for him. I've had my criticisms about
his performance as a finance minister. I might not have agreed with everything he's done
and the way he's gone about his business. But I cannot take back from him the fact that
he tried to put across a radical line [the hands of] [inaud.]
Now, he came under enormous pressure. An incredible attack about a month and a half ago. He was
slammed by the European powers, and he had to retreat during the last week or so. He's
managed to salvage a lot of personal pride and a lot of personal standing. He did a very
good job arguing for the no vote. But that really was the end for him, because he was
obvious that he couldn't go to [inaud.] he just didn't have any scope to do so. So he
stepped down. And now it's a question of who is going to replace him.
I'm a little worried about who that might be. I don't want people, someone to stand
in his shoes who hasn't got some radical outlook on Yanis. So I'm a bit concerned.
JAY: In his resignation, little statement that he wrote on his blog, I guess maybe he's
gone more public with it. But it kind of positioned it in a nuanced way, that the Europeans don't
want him. They want him absent from the discussions, and it's kind of a concession, it seemed,
to have him--remove him from those negotiations.
LAPAVITSAS: I'm not sure it's a concession. I think it's a realistic move. I think relations
between Varoufakis and the lenders have become so tense that it would have been impossible
for him to negotiate with any seriousness, that's the reality. So I can understand, it's
basically practical politics. It's basically practical politics.
JAY: Now, you're a member of parliament. You've been writing columns in the Guardian. What
are you advocating now? In this moment, what should Syriza's next steps be?
LAPAVITSAS: Let's think here about a number of things. The strategy of Syriza before the
election, and for most of its time in government, has been to achieve radical change in Greece
and a new relationship with the lenders, solving the macroeconomic problems of the country
within the Eurozone. The argument was if we negotiate hard, if we use democratic weapons
that we've got in our hands, we will achieve a better settlement for the Greek people.
This strategy has come to an end.
I don't think the lenders will take a step back. I think they'll actually do [inaud.]
Syriza needs a new strategy very quickly, and I think the realization will come upon
it equally quickly in the coming days and weeks. It's a dead end. I don't think the
European Central Bank will provide the country with more liquidity. I don't think the lenders
will make a better offer. Syriza will have to face a tough reality in the coming period.
And that means making do. Relying on the strength of the Greek people, and only that, to see
them in the crisis.
JAY: I heard on BBC last night a member of Merkel's party, a right-wing member of Merkel's
party--I mean, the whole party's pretty right-wing. But at any rate, a right-wing of a right-wing
party. He says it's time for the Greeks to take their lesson.
LAPAVITSAS: The Greeks have shown, they've shown yesterday, that they are ready to face
up to whatever will come their way from the lenders. The lenders must not forget that.
Yes, they will show very clearly the Greek people are ready for it. So that's the first
thing to say.
Beyond that, there is no liquidity in the country. The economy hardly functions. Syriza
can make an attempt to get a better deal with the lenders. If that doesn't come true, Syriza
needs to take radical measures quickly. It needs to put the knife in. It needs to sort
the problem of the banks out. Banks need to be nationalized and run centrally very quickly.
It needs to do something about the mass media. The mass media in this country this week went
absolutely crazy, tried to push for the yes vote. Syriza needs to do something about big
business. Big business--.
JAY: Back up, what is do something about the mass media? What's the something?
LAPAVITSAS: The mass media, the private companies that own the mass media in Greece owe the
state enormous amounts of money. They've been operating on very favorable terms. They don't--it's
an incredible regime. It needs to be tightened, and very quickly. It's completely unacceptable
that a few oligarchs can run the mass media in this country, wage war against the government,
and still owe the state enormous amounts of money. Enough of that. The Greek people don't
want any more.
JAY: And is there a public broadcaster of any scale in Greece?
LAPAVITSAS: There is a public broadcaster. It's been reopened, because the previous government
shut it down. That needs to be strengthened, and it needs to be, to become fully operational.
So that action is needed.
And then action is also needed with regard to big business. This country is run in the
interests of a small group of very powerful, very rich, and very corrupt people. The Greek
people are up in arms about that. They want action. Syriza has been delinquent in this
respect, very slow. We need action quickly. So all these things have to happen in the
next few days, or they have to start happening in the next few days. And in addition to that,
obviously, the country needs to deal in a decisive way with the lenders. Enough--enough
is enough. If this means devising new ways of creating liquidity, then we will devise
new ways of creating liquidity.
JAY: That means back to the drachma.
LAPAVITSAS: Not necessarily. Not in the first instance. There are ways of doing it. We are
just one step from extraordinary economic measures taken in Greece. Measures that haven't
been taken in Europe for a long time. But then, the situation imposed on Greece is extraordinary.
The lenders--.
JAY: What kind of measures are you talking about?
LAPAVITSAS: There are ways of creating liquidity. There are ways in which the state can pay
for its obligations, for its purchases. Even in Euros, but without going through the banks
in the usual way.
JAY: How does that work? I thought the country's running out of Euros.
LAPAVITSAS: Yeah, the country's running out of Euros, but the state can issue [means]
of payment in Euros.
JAY: You mean, actually print its own Euros.
LAPAVITSAS: No. Print IOUs, for instance. I'm not suggesting that this is what's going
to happen, but I'm saying that there are options, and the country should use them because blackmail
will not work.
I argued some time ago in the Guardian, [inaud.] happens which you mentioned previously, that
Greece will not be blackmailed. Well, I was right. Greece will not be blackmailed. Those
who think that the Greek people will be blackmailed don't understand the Greek people. Enough
is enough.
JAY: Now, I know you and I know each other, and I've interviewed you many times. It was
kind of known, this, if one wanted to know, that this is where this all was going to end
up. In the sense that, to think that the European finance capitalists are going, were going
to make a fair deal for Greece was hard to understand why anyone would think that, given
who they are. There doesn't seem to have been real planning for this moment. Like, you would
have thought it would have been even a good negotiating leverage to create all kinds of
mechanisms for this moment. And even if that isn't what you were aiming for, at least you'd
have them in place.
LAPAVITSAS: Paul, this is Greece, okay. Planning and preparation, basically, this is not what
the Greeks are known for, whether they blow to the left or to the right. But that's where
they are and that's what it is. And that's how history moves.
Those who understand political economy and those who understand the politics of Europe
knew that if there was a Syriza government it could expect the hostility of the lenders,
who are very conservative reactionaries, essentially. We knew that. But the Greek people didn't
necessarily understand it in the way in which those involved in politics understand it.
People have to understand what's happening in their own way. And that's what's happened
the last few months. People have understood it in their own way.
That also means national identity. The Greeks feel deeply affronted. They feel that they've
done everything that was asked of them. They feel that they've bent over backwards to come
to a sensible deal with the lenders. And they feel that the lenders have been ruthless,
arrogant, overweening, you name it. And people are very, very angry. Very annoyed. Enough.
You know, that's what they're saying. Enough.
JAY: Okay. Thanks very much for joining us, Costas. We're going to do a second part with
Costas, so please have a look for that. And thank you for joining us. Thanks, Costas.
LAPAVITSAS: Thank you very much.
JAY: And thank you for joining us on the Real News Network.