Hi welcome to China Uncensored,
I'm your host Chris Chappell.
The China Uncensored crew was recently at
the Oslo Freedom Forum,
one of the largest human rights conferences in the world.
We met up with Mu Sochua,
a former member of the Cambodian Parliament,
now turned rights activist.
She sat down with Shelley Zhang to discuss
the Chinese Communist Party’s growing influence in Cambodia.
Thanks for watching.
We were able to do this interview thanks to support
from the Oslo Freedom Forum.
They’d invited me to speak at the conference,
and also helped us arrange interviews.
We also rely on support from viewers—
fans who contribute to China Uncensored through Patreon.
Click the orange button to learn more.
Thank you so much for joining us Sochua.
So you're one of the leaders of
the opposition party in Cambodia,
and although we're mostly going be
talking about China and Cambodia,
could you just give us a brief look at what's happening
right now with the Cambodian government?
I want to start by saying that democracy is dead in Cambodia...
the Prime Minister of Cambodia,
Mr. Hun Sen is a former Khmer Rouge,
so we still live through the legacy of Khmer Rouge.
So, Mr. Hun Sen, what he wants,
is to continue his power,
and has been in power for over thirty-four years.
So in order to stay in power,
he has to eliminate all forces that are for democracy,
including civil society, independent media,
even international organizations like the National Democratic Institute.
Then, he turned on us the Opposition,
the Cambodian National Rescue Party,
and the party now is dissolved as of last November.
What's the relationship between Hun Sen
and the Chinese government?
Mr. Hun Sen, his only concern is how to keep power.
And every time he is confronting us,
confronting the people,
there is a crisis in Cambodia,
he goes straight to China.
And every time he goes there,
he comes back with gifts from China.
What are the gifts?
Millions of dollars, more roads, more bridges.
And also more port, and also more military equipment.
And we know that some of the tanks,
some of these barbed wires have the equipment
that are worn--
these uniforms used by the anti-riot police
that crack down on us,
come from China.
Hun Sen knows if he keeps the Opposition alive,
to compete with him in the July election,
he will lose again.
We have gained over forty-four percent of the vote,
half of the country.
And half of the people in Cambodia are still angry.
Angry because they wake up,
our farmers wake up and the land is gone.
The land is given to Chinese companies by the prime minister.
In the so-called policy of economic land concessions.
So what are they giving the land for?
In the province of Koh Kong in the south, the land--
tens and thousands of hectares of land--
communities that used to belong to the indigenous communities,
given to Chinese--
one company to build a golf course.
Cambodia, especially our farmers,
do not need a golf course,
we don't need more resort where
Cambodian local people cannot afford,
not even a room,
but even a glass of water.
So the resorts are built for whom?
We don't know.
See the problem is these land concessions given
to Chinese companies are given by the prime minister
and there's no transparency whatsoever.
The only way we know is that the people are
forced out of their land,
like our fishermen, our farmers,
forced out of the land and put in jail if they protest.
So let's talk a little bit about the port that you mentioned.
So there's a Chinese company, Union Development,
that was given a ninety-nine year lease
on twenty percent of Cambodia's coastline.
Were there no Cambodian companies that wanted
to develop the port or what happened?
Again, under the name of Development,
Cambodia is either for sale or given for free...
Why?
What is happening inside,
what is gone, like especially the port.
Outside independent experts cannot go in,
not at all.
And then the so-called environmental assessment,
evaluation, is never done independently,
or with any sense of transparency or accountability.
One Belt One Road,
goes from the north of Cambodia
all the way to the south where the port is.
So everything can be taken out of Cambodia
to go out of Cambodia to China.
And the problem today is that the Opposition,
the civil society, the human rights organizations
are no longer allowed to follow,
as we are not even inside Cambodia.
We are in exile, our seats as parliamentarians
have been taken away from us,
our party is dissolved.
So who's looking after Cambodia?
No one.
So how is China keeping Hun Sen in power?
Hun Sen now is saying,
“The Opposition is under the U.S.,
the revolution that the Opposition is organizing
is actually funded by the U.S."
That's the theory of Mr. Hun Sen.
Therefore he must go to China...
Mr. Hun Sen chooses to go to China
because there is no check and balance required,
because there is no protection of human rights
required by China.
That's true, the Chinese government
doesn't care if he oppresses his people.
But we care.
We care.
And to us, the only way to be friend with China
on a equal term, equal footing,
is for us to be able to grow and economically
sustain these growth with a economically sound policy...
Another thing that we are very concerned about
is that another port area, Kampong Som, Sihanoukville,
now has twenty casinos.
Twenty casinos build by China.
Who's going to the casinos?
Chinese.
Because the local people
cannot legally enter a casino.
And these are the companies,
the Chinese companies they don't really
care about local quality of life?
Not at all...
And then you have the Chinese mafia along the coast,
even the governor himself has written
a report to Mr. Hun Sen and say,
"Mr. Prime Minister, I cannot control my province anymore.
It's out of control."
And Mr. Hun Sen say, "Don't talk about it."...
And not only that, the Chinese there are creating chaos.
They can beat up the local people, and the local police,
our police, cannot protect our people because they're
afraid of the Chinese mafia company,
and because Mr. Hun Sen's boss is China.
So there are actually a lot of Chinese Cambodians in Cambodia.
Is the problem with the current Chinese government
causing tensions between the Chinese in Cambodia,
and Cambodians?
What we are saying is that it's not China as a country
that we are afraid of because like me, I'm half Chinese.
The Chinese people are our friends.
It's the policy of China today,
vis a vis the global world,
and its policy of taking over,
controlling the world,
that makes us want to rise up,
not against the Chinese people.
We have Chinese people.
We have ethnic Chinese, about 10%.
I speak Chinese.
My grandfather came from China.
But, China then is not China now.
We didn't lose our land
and there was cultural interaction into marriages.
But today because of what China is doing to us,
there is friction growing and that's not what we want.
So, is there anything that the Cambodian people
can do about this?
We are not giving up.
We must protect our land.
We must protect Cambodia...
We are about less than two months before election
and this is key...
If we leave Cambodia as it is,
Cambodia is a liability to the region.
It will go and turn into economic,
social and political instability.
This is a security issue,
a regional security issue and we need to solve it now.
Coming from Cambodia,
a place where all this is happening,
do you have something to say to the rest of the world
about dealing with the Chinese government?
Here I am at the Oslo Freedom Forum.
Before coming here I was saying,
"What should we do?"
This is ... We're going to lose our people,
people who are still inside?
Our leader, who is in jail.
By coming here to the Oslo Freedom Forum ,
and hearing how other countries
who have been damaged by dictators,
dictators who need the support of China.
I feel this unity.
I feel that we're speaking one language,
the language of freedom of liberty and democracy,
and we have to say to the countries that believe in democracy,
don't give up on us.
There are institutions,
there are mechanisms like the UN.
Use it, use it to put pressure.
You put pressure,
the measures that can be taken
such as economic sanctions,
such as targeted sanctions.
Like visa ban on those officials close to even Mr. Hun Sen.
Why should he be allowed to go to the United States?
To France, to Norway, to any country.
To any country that was part of the Schengen.
Stop it.
We can together talk about freezing of assets.
I am very inspired by the Global Magnitsky Act
adopted in the United States and it is being applied now...
Now I think there is hope,
but we have to use the international mechanism
to deal with these dictators.
At the end of the day,
I think Mr. Hun Sen needs legacy, to be…
He needs legacy.
Mr. Hun Sen wants to travel to New York
to the UN General Assembly session.
It is there,
it is that mechanism that dictators like Mr. Hun Sen
must go and face the people of the world,
and that's why international community
should not abandon each other,
get on the same wagon and that's how we deal with China.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thanks for watching.
We were able to do this interview thanks to support from the Oslo Freedom Forum.
They’d invited me to speak at the conference, and also helped us arrange interviews.
We also rely on support from viewers—
fans who contribute to China Uncensored through Patreon.
Click the orange button to learn more.