>>> NEW RESEARCH SHOWS THAT WOMEN ARE LEAVING STEM CAREERS,
JOBS IN SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING AND MATH AFTER THE
BIRTH OF THEIR FIRST CHILD.
AND THE NUMBERS ARE HIGH.
MORE THAN 40%, ACCORDING TO THE JOURNAL NATURE.
I SPOKE WITH JOYA MISHRA, A PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AT U.
MASS AMHERST, TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS TREND IN A FIELD
THAT'S TRYING TO RECRUIT MORE WOMEN.
>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING WORK, AND WHAT THEY DID WAS THEY
LOOKED AT SCIENTISTS AND FOLLOWED THEM FOR EIGHT YEARS.
THEY STARTED FOLLOWING THEM BEFORE THEY HAD ANY CHILDREN,
AND THEN THEY FOLLOWED PEOPLE A FEW YEARS LATER, THREE YEARS
LATER AND THEN EIGHT YEARS LATER TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
SOME PEOPLE HAVE CHILDREN, SOME PEOPLE DON'T.
AND THE KEY TAKE AWAY TO THE RESEARCH IS THAT WOMEN WHO HAVE
CHILDREN ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO LEAVE THEIR CAREERS.
WHAT'S INTERESTING HERE IS THAT MEN ALSO ARE MORE LIKELY TO
LEAVE THOSE SCIENCE CAREERS, THOSE STEM CAREERS, IF THEY HAVE
CHILDREN DURING THAT TIME.
BUT WOMEN ARE SO MUCH MORE LIKELY, WE KNOW IT'S A REAL
ISSUE.
>> THEY REPORTED 40% WILL LEAVE THOSE JOBS.
AND THOSE ARE GOOD PAYING JOBS, THOSE ARE JOBS THAT REQUIRE
DEGREES AND PROBABLY MASTERS.
SO WHAT IS IT THAT DOESN'T SUPPORT THEM TO REMAIN IN THAT
POSITION?
>> I THINK IT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT, I THINK IT'S BOTH
STRUCTURAL AND CULTURAL ISSUES IN THOSE WORKPLACES.
SO STRUCTURALLY THEY COULD BE SET UP SO THAT YOU'RE HAVING TO
WORK ALL AROUND THE CLOCK, OR YOU NEED TO BE AT THE LAB FOR
FAIRLY LONG HOURS, AND THERE'S NO RECOGNITION THAT YOU MIGHT
HAVE, OTHER THINGS, CARE RESPONSIBILITIES AT HOME.
I THINK THAT'S ONE REAL ISSUE.
I THINK ANOTHER ISSUE IS JUST A CULTURE THAT ASSUMES THAT
EVERYBODY IS GOING TO BE AN IDEAL WORKER THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY
NO CARE RESPONSIBILITIES.
SO IT'S JUST AN ASSUMPTION THAT NO ONE IS GOING TO HAVE ANYTHING
THAT WOULD BE REQUIRING THEIR TIME OUTSIDE OF WORK HOURS.
AND THAT CULTURE CAN BE REALLY DIFFICULT TO CHALLENGE, LIKE IF
YOU DON'T SEE A LOT OF OTHER MOTHERS THERE, IF YOU DON'T SEE
A LOT OF OTHER PARENTS WHO ARE PROVIDING CARE FOR THEIR
CHILDREN, IT CAN FEEL LIKE THIS ISN'T THE PLACE FOR ME.
>> AND RATHER THAN FIGHT IT, I THINK IT'S EASIER IN A WAY TO
LEAVE BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE I'M GOING TO HAVE TO GO IN AND
EXPLAIN THAT I HAVE TO PICK UP MY SON OR DAUGHTER BECAUSE HE'S
SICK AND THEN I'M GOING TO GET THE LOOK AND FEEL GUILTY AS I'M
WALKING OUT.
THOSE ARE REAL WORKPLACE ISSUES THAT MOMS AND DADS FACE ON A
DAILY BASIS, IN OTHER CAREERS ARE AS WELL.
BUT TO FACE THAT TO THAT DEGREE HAS TO BE DIFFICULT.
>> I THINK IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT, ESPECIALLY, AS YOU
SAID, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE SPENT MANY, MANY YEARS GETTING THEIR
EDUCATIONS, GETTING THE DEGREES THEY NEED IN ORDER TO SUCCEED IN
THOSE CAREERS AND THEN IF WE CAN THINK ABOUT IT LIKE WE'VE
INVESTED SO MUCH TIME IN THOSE CAREERS, AS WORKERS, OUR
EMPLOYERS HAVE INVESTED SO MUCH IN OUR TIME, GAINING THE
EXPERIENCE, AND THEN AFTER THE BIRTH OF A CHILD EVERYTHING
SHIFTS AND IT'S LIKE ALL THOSE INVESTMENTS GO SORT OF
UNREWARDED.
>> HOW DO YOU CHANGE THAT SCENARIO FOR THEM, ESPECIALLY IF
THEY SAY, LISTEN, I LOVE THIS JOB BUT SOME DAY I WANT TO START
A FAMILY?
>> RIGHT.
IT'S NOT ALL THAT HARD.
THESE ARE NOT LIKE IMPOSSIBLE THINGS TO DEAL WITH, THEY JUST
TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF INTENT.
SO OVER THE LAST DECADE OR SO, BOTH THE NATIONAL SCIENCE
FOUNDATION AND NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH HAVE DONE A
GREAT JOB OF CREATING POLICIES THAT SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE
A BIG GRANT AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A BABY, WE'RE GOING TO
EXTEND THAT GRANT.
YOU KNOW.
THIS IS JUST TOTALLY A RECOGNIZABLE PART OF SOMEBODY'S
CAREER.
SO THEY'VE BEEN PRETTY FOCUSED ON, HEY, LET'S THINK
STRUCTURALLY ABOUT HOW WE CAN CHANGE THE WAY WE DO THINGS SO
THAT IT'S MORE WELCOMING AND MORE POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE WITH
CARE RESPONSIBILITIES TO REMAIN IN STEM.
THAT'S ONE THING.
INSTITUTIONS CAN ALSO DO THEIR PART.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE A SCIENTIST AT U. MASS AMHERST AND
YOU ARE IN A 10-YEAR TRACK JOB, YOU CAN TAKE A SEMESTER OF PAID
PARENTAL LEAVE, THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE.
IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN, OKAY, THAT MEANS YOU JUST LET GO
OF SCIENCE FOR THOSE MONTHS THAT YOU'RE ON PARENTAL LEAVE.
REALLY WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT YOU'RE NOT TEACHING AS MUCH OR
GOING TO COMMITTEE MEETINGS, BUT YOU CAN KEEP YOUR RESEARCH GOING
WHILE YOU ALSO HAVE A SMALL BABY.
THOSE KINDS OF POLICIES MAKE AN ENORMOUS DIFFERENCE.
AND THEN AS YOU HAVE MORE AND MORE WOMEN IN ANY GIVEN
DEPARTMENT OR ANY GIVEN WORKPLACE, IT BECOMES MUCH MORE
LIKE, OH, YES, OF COURSE, THIS IS COMPLETELY REASONABLE.
>> TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER AND COVER EACH OTHER.
>> EXACTLY, AND IT'S A VERY SHORT, WHAT WE'RE USUALLY
TALKING ABOUT IS JUST A COUPLE YEARS OUT OF SOMEBODY'S LIFE
WHERE THEY NEED A LITTLE EXTRA SUPPORT.
THEN YOU'LL HAVE DECADES MORE OF THAT INVESTMENT PAYING OFF.
>> I'M SURE FOR THOSE COMPANIES AS WELL SINCE THEY HAVE INVESTED
IN THOSE EMPLOYEES, IT HAS TO SERVE THEM TO BE FLEXIBLE AND TO
BE SUPPORTIVE BECAUSE NOW THEY HAVE TO GO AND FIND SOMEBODY
ELSE AND THEY'RE STARTING ALL OVER AGAIN.
>> EXACTLY.
YOU KNOW, WHY START ALL OVER AGAIN, WHY INVEST IN SOMEBODY
ELSE'S TRAINING AND DEVELOP THEIR EXPERTISE WHEN YOU KNOW
THAT IT'S GOING TO BE A REVOLVING DOOR, YOU'RE JUST
GOING TO KEEP LOSING PEOPLE.
MAKING THESE SHIFTS MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.
>> WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT OTHER CAREERS ASIDE FROM STEM, ARE
THERE OTHER CAREERS THAT ARE TYPICALLY MORE FAMILY FRIENDLY?
>> THERE ARE SOME JOBS.
REALLY WHEN WE LOOK AT JOBS THAT ARE SORT OF THOUGHT TO BE FAMILY
FRIENDLY, A LOT OF TIMES WE TALK ABOUT THEM AS HAVING
COMPENSATING DIFFERENTIALS, MOST OF THEM ARE NOT REALLY.
A LOT OF JOBS THAT ARE DOMINATED BY WOMEN ARE WITH VERY SET
SCHEDULES, SAY WORKING AS AN ADMINISTRATOR OR STAFF PERSON,
NOT A LOT OF FLEXIBILITY IN TERMS OF TAKING CARE OF KIDS.
TEACHERS IS A GROUP PEOPLE TALK A LOT ABOUT.
IF YOU HAVE SUMMERS OFF AND CHILDREN HAVE SUMMERS OFF, THAT
CAN BE A WONDERFUL THING.
DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR, THOUGH, IF YOU'RE WORKING, YOUR CHILD IS
SICK, YOU'RE WORKING.
THERE'S NOT A LOT OF FLEXIBILITY.
SO YOU KNOW, REALLY THE JOBS THAT ARE THE BEST IN TERMS OF
SUPPORTING CARE AND EMPLOYMENT ARE ONES IN WHICH THERE'S A
LITTLE BIT OF FLEX IN THE SCHEDULE AND THERE'S A LITTLE
BIT OF RECOGNITION THAT THAT FLEXIBILITY IS OKAY FOR LOTS OF
DIFFERENT REASONS.
IT'S NOT JUST MOTHERS WHO MIGHT NEED IT, BUT EVERYBODY MIGHT
NEED IT.
>> HOW WOULD YOU ENCOURAGE YOUNG WOMEN AND YOUNG MEN WHO ARE
GOING TO GET THEIR DEGREE AND OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE
TO PAY OFF THEIR STUDENT LOANS, SO THEY NEED THAT NICE BIG JOB,
BUT HOW WOULD YOU ADVISE THEM TO CHOOSE A CAREER ESPECIALLY IF
THEY'RE THINKING LONG TERM I WANT TO START A FAMILY.
AND I KNOW THAT A LOT OF YOUNGER PEOPLE WILL PUT OFF THAT TIME
FRAME UNTIL THEY'RE ESTABLISHED.
BUT HOW DO YOU ADVISE THEM?
>> I THINK IT'S TRUE THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF COMPANIES IN THE
UNITED STATES THAT TRY TO GET THE VERY BEST WORKERS BY SAYING
LOOK AT THESE GREAT POLICIES WE HAVE.
SO ONE THING IS JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT KINDS OF POLICIES
ARE IN PLACE IN THAT WORKPLACE.
ANOTHER THING IN INTERVIEWING IS TO LOOK AROUND.
IF YOU SEE A PRETTY DIVERSE SET OF WORKERS, IT'S LIKELY THAT
THERE IS A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBILITY.
IF IT SEEMS LIKE A WORKPLACE IN WHICH EVERYBODY IS WORKING 24-7,
AND IT'S MORE MEN THAN WOMEN, IT'S UNLIKELY THAT IT'S GOING TO
WORK AS WELL.
>> IF PEOPLE WANTED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS ISSUE, ARE THERE
REFERENCES OUT THERE THAT THEY CAN LOOK AT?
>> SO THERE'S THIS REALLY INTERESTING BOOK CALLED FAILING
FAMILIES, FAILING SCIENCE, AND ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING
TAKE AWAYS IN THAT BOOK WHERE THEY FOLLOWED BOTH BIOLOGISTS
AND PHYSICISTS, AND PHYSICS HAS A MUCH LESS FAMILY FRIENDLY
CULTURE THAN BIOLOGY DOES, THEY FOLLOWED BOTH BIOLOGISTS AND
PHYSICISTS, AND THE KEY THING THEY FOUND OUT WAS THAT IT WAS
NOT JUST WOMEN BUT MEN THAT WERE LEAVING THESE JOBS BECAUSE OF
PERCEIVED INFLEXIBILITY.
SO THE FAILING SCIENCE PIECE OF THAT IS REALLY JUST SAYING THAT
WE'RE LOSING A LOT OF GREAT WORKERS IN STEM BECAUSE WE DON'T
HAVE A SYSTEM THAT IS MEANT TO SUPPORT HAVING CHILDREN, HAVING
FAMILIES.