[Hassan Ilyas] Ghamidi Saab
you briefly stated an opinion
on a T.V program
with respect to the tradition of memorization of Quran
some scholars and clerics also wrote articles upon it
some supported it
and some criticized it as well
I want that today
we should analyze this matter of tradition of memorization holistically
and all the objections
or the point of views
that are presented against your notions
I would like to bring them under discussion as well
firstly tell me this
that the tradition of memorization
and it is a very ancient traditon
in fact, Quran-e-Majeed which has reached us
through ijma and tawatur
in that people by memorizing
and then after reading it
have taken it to different people as well
and those who write have written it as well
this tradition in the present era
how do you view it?
and do you feel that
people should at present in this era
send their children for Hifz to madaaris (religious schools)?
[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] Keep the last thing aside
in spite of this tradition itself being an extraordinary distinction of Muslims
it is we who have
learned Allah's book orally in this way
and carried it forward
if you look at the writings of those times
then in them the system of writing is not so developed
that whatever you are saying verbally
can be completely expressed in words
so precisely for the transmission of Quran-e-Majeed
this method was chosen
that the people who write should write it
and the one who memorize should memorize it
and it happened more or less after a century
or a little before that
that whatever was being said
it was in the form of recitation
was superimposed on the mushaf (text of the Quran)
that is, the e'raab (vowel marks) and 'alaamat (symbols) took birth
or if they were present since before
they got more developed
so preparation was done
that it could be imposed onto the text
it is the same book which is in our hands right now
from which people read the Quran
but in spite of that
that all of this happened
Muslims kept this tradition alive
the scholars continued the tradition of Hifz
some memorized some parts
some memorized the entire Quran
and then the tradition of memorizing the entire Quran
attained a great importance in taraviih
After Syedna Umar Razi Allahu anhu
when Muslims adopted this as a common tradition
that in Ramazan you have to complete the Quran
in fact more than one Quran were being completed
so people would stand in the namaz for reading it
so they did not think of holding a book as being appropriate
so most of the people used to memorize
so this tradition can also be observed today
that is, the way Quran-e-Majeed is committed to writing
in the same way it is committed to memory
so it is a very extraordinary tradition
so it should never be viewed with scorn
what turns the world will take
if now those means have taken birth
that in which you are preserving a book through numerous aspects
that is, now it is present in spoken form
it is present in a written form
in that even man is no longer a mediator
everything can be preserved
but in any case this is a very sacred and important tradition
and it produces this relationship of ours with Allah's book
and then for some scholars who need to work on the Quran
this is also a requirement
that they must remember as much of the Quran as possible
so in my view
this tradition in its own place
has its history
it is also needed
and it will be there till the last day
and people will continue doing it
but the method adopted for making children memorize Quran-e-Majeed
in our society
I had made a critique of this
and I had said that
in this the first thing
is that the environment is not good
second is this
that the child's own choice is not involved
and the way the Quran is memorized
there is an apprehension
that the children later on in life
with this book
develop a situation of unconcern
if I put it in plain words
and I have seen its vices
so people should learn it at a later age
they should memorize it even now
that is, when they reach the age of cognition
in the same way
we have children
at the age of seven, eight or ten
if they are ready to learn because of their own interest
or you encouraged them and they developed the interest
then it is a very good thing
then in that as well
one should not sit with this fixation
that we have sent the child
or he has decided
so he must memorize it entirely
if his heart is in it
then it is a very good thing
if his heart is not in it
then you must let him focus on some other discipline
in our society
the two or three things that have been adopted with this
one they are very little kids
and then the environment is not very good where they are sent
and along with that
it also has a bad effect on their personality
so in my view the tradition is very good
but what is the need to bind children to it?
[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Saab
Okay, Ghamidi Saab
tell me this
that in our society
there is what you call an attitude
that comes from some people who have a modern education
that by merely seeing things for their effects
and by merely seeing things on their merit
they decide that this thing is worthy of acceptance
and this thing is not worthy of acceptance
but a person as you say
is a sensitive, embodied being
he has a mindset
a past
a tradition and a history
so this tradition of memorization that is there
in our culture
for instance, if there are children
they are reciting the taraviih
the elders are standing behind them and listening
and it also gives joy
then this passion of the parents
that we have made our child memorize
then it is obvious
that we have worked hard on the children with respect to Deen
Allah will reward us for it on the Judgement day
so these psychological aspects
that become contiguous
with some of the practical measures
so do you feel that
by merely looking at them for their merits or demerits
should we reject or accept them?
or the psychological aspect that is present in it
should that also be kept in view while analyzing a situation?
[Ghamidi] This is itself a merit
that is, a person is not only an intellectual being
he has many psychological aspects within him
he expresses his love for things
he expresses his attatchment with them
we read Quran-e-Majeed
so if you look at your own experience
is the Quran always recited for careful thought?
it is also recited for remembrance
it is recited to establish a relationship with Allah ta'la's book
such occasions also come up
that there are certain circumstances upon you
you are facing some difficulties
there are some ups and downs in life
so for consoling his heart
a person opens the Quran to read or starts listening to it
so there is also a spiritualism in the words of Allah's book
there is an extraordinary power
when we are reading with this thought
that these are the words of our Lord
that it is the speech of our Lord
it is obvious that this thing
cannot be made apparent merely by translation
so this should be viewed with great respect
and the entire existence of a person
needs to be in relation with Deen
that is, in Deen the act of understanding
will be through knowledghe
it will be through intellect
but after that it becomes a part of my existence
that is, among my relationships
it is one of my biggest relationships (i.e. with God)
so do I measure my relationship
with my mother
with my father
with my brothers and sisters
do I always measure them on the scale of intellect?
on an intellectual basis
this thing has become understood
that these are relationships
so in the same manner
on an intellectual basis
I have recognized God
I have brought faith on him without seeing Him
I have accepted the Prophets
but my emotional relationship
will take birth as a necessary consequence of it
it is a relationship of my entire existence
the expression of that relationship
will take thousands of forms
such as we read a Naat on some occasion
or on some occasion
we say something in the praise of God
or we read verses in Hamd
this is an expression of all those emotions
so you cannot separate and remove this from a person's life
it is not possible
the thing that I insist upon
it is this
that you must bring it to your children's attention
but in this matter
you should neither force them
nor should you send them in a bad environment
and you should also not
as people have made it to be
a means of one's own salvation
that is, with Allah's book
in a very good environment
it should be a means to express a relation with Allah
so if a child has an attitude of interest for learning
then it is a good thing
it is a very good thing
but also this
that it does not matter
if he learns it when he grows up
if he learns at that age
when he has
accepted Quran-e-Majeed as a book of guidance for himself
there are many people who have in their youth
in fact in their old age
have memorized Quran-e-Majeed
there is no problem in memorizing it later
this should be done with awareness
with love
with attachment
the method of forcing it upon kids that has been adopted in our society
and because of these kind of traditions
no one knows how many people will be saved because of it
this must be completely avoided
it is a very dangerous thing
and in present times
it can make children especially averse to Quran-e-Majeed
[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Saab
those people who have
on this tradition of memorization
those who have criticized
and said that it should be stopped now
this arrangement of making children memorize must stop
they also raised a point
that due to this
that attitude of understanding Quran
and then of acting on it
that attitude also comes to an end
okay, in response to this
from our scholars
this thing came forward
that understanding Quran-e-Majeed
and focusing on it
is certainly necessary
but a connection with its words
reciting it without understanding it
this is also
what you call
a rewarding thing
so if you separate it as if from the Arabic text
and bring only explanation
and understanding in the matter of Quran
so the relation which is there with the book of Allah
then for that matter a person can read any translation
then there will be no relation with those words anymore
[Ghamidi] No, in my view
both the things are important
that is, Quran-e-Majeed
is in actual for guidance
if it is given careful thought
every person has to do it
but
and every man should learn some of the Quran
because he has to read the namaz
especially in the fajr namaz
long Surahs are read
if Allah ta'la gives the grace for tahajjud (prayer after mid-night)
then in that too it is obvious
that the Quran is read
in this era however
such media has taken birth
that you can listen to it
you can also read with the book in your hands
none of it is beyond reach
but a person's heart wants
that he preserves much of the Quran in his heart
the real question is not this
all of these are the needs of human beings
that is giving it careful thought
this is among his duties
knowing and understanding the Quran
on this he depends his success in the hereafter
but developing a relation with the words of Quran-e-Majeed
you kiss the book of Allah
you hold it
you keep it close to you
these methods of expressing respect
these methods of expressing love
these are also the necessities of human life
therefore both the things
should remain in their own place and for their own occasion
the arrangement should not be overturned
that is, in our society
the arrangement is in reverse
therefore there are some criticisms of it
that the Quran should be read with understanding
that one should seek guidance from Quran
this is no longer being done in our society
at all!
so this should be reversed
the actual matter is this
and with that
this is also a very important aspect
that people should memorize
they can memorize a lot
they can memorize the entire Quran
so if you keep the order of things correct
and give everything the right attention
then it achieves worthiness and value
when you reverse the order
then it is obvious
that on some occasions the criticism also needs to be tough
so both of these things
in my view
are a little extreme
the right balance between them is this
that it should be made clear to every child
that he has to read Allah's book
he has to learn from it
he has to understand it
its translation should be taught to him
he should have a direct relationship with Quran-e-Majeed
for his whole life
the Quran should always be with him such that
whenever there is any restlessness in his mind
then he can take out the Quran and read it
and seek guidance from it
every Muslim in his entire life
at least for once
he should read the entire Quran-e-Majeed
from the beginning to the end
he should read it with understanding
whether you read it through translation
or through some of the modern ways that have been adopted
in which you learn the translation
you can learn it in that way
or it can be that if Allah gives the ability
that you know Arabic
then you can read it directly
so all of these matters should be dealt with by every individual
if some people have this interest
that they should learn the Quran
so this interest of theirs
should be encouraged and developed further
but the actual thing that deserves criticism
is forcing this tradition on children
and the parents making an issue of it
it should be avoided
for Deen
for invitation towards the deen
and for the futures of the children as well
it is very harmful
[Hassan] Okay. Ghamidi Saab
as you said that
the actual work
it is obvious that
Allah has revealed the speech
for guidance
it needs to be read and understood
and you also clarified about that tradition in the past days
which is usually described
that on every letter there will be ten rewards
whether it is a weak tradition
and the complete tradition that is there
in that only teaching is mentioned
of reading the Quran with understanding
but if a man who reads it without understanding
then do you deny this
that reading without understanding
merely reciting it
it does not become the basis for reward
[Ghamidi] See the thing is that
one is that I read the Quran-e-Majeed only by understanding it
always by keeping an eye on its translation
by keeping an eye on its meaning
I recite it
in my own life
I'm saying this as a common Muslim
the Quran is present as a living book
this is my general attitude
and on any occasion
or in a general recitation
in order to express love for Allah's book
or in order to attain remembrance from it
or merely to be in its vicinity
I read it
so both of these things have their own place
when you reverse this order
then everything goes helter-skelter
basically the order of things should be correct
my first responsibility towards my mother is this
that I should
if she needs to eat
then I should arrange for it
I should arrange a place for her
I should arrange for her living
I should arrange for her comfort and for her rest
if she is sick
then I should arrange for her treatment
then kissing her hand also gives me joy
that is also an expression of my love
but if I only keep kissing the hand?
so the order of our relationship with Quran-e-Majeed should be correct
in actual it is a book for guidance
in actual we have to read it
in actual it is our responsibility
if you will take a psychological aspect of comfort
and overturn its order to make the goal
then there will be critique on it
[Hassan] Yes, you said a very beautiful thing Ghamidi Saab
please tell this
that one more aspect
it is said
that when the medium to take the Quran forward was adopted
in that you also made it clear
that people used to read it
so this medium of reading that is there
if you give it up
the medium of memorizing
if you give it up
then it is as if
the mediums through which Deen has reached us
then you are stopping one of the biggest media
and it is said that
the actual medium that is there
even today it is the same
that you memorize it
the rest of the media that are there
they are secondary
and they are not even that strong
as a result the tradition of memorization that is there
the means to reach Deen that are there
it is based on them
and we cannot change those media
[Ghamidi] No, in my view
why has the need to change them come up?
i.e., the ways that have been planned by the ummat to carry forward Quran-e-Majeed
they should continue in the same manner
the thing that is being critiqued
it is not this thing
that is, the scholars memorize it
adults memorize it
people learn the entire Quran because of their interest
all of this should continue as usual
there is a tradition of taraviih in your society
people will keep memorizing it with respect to it
there are many people
who after memorizing Quran-e-Majeed
would want to recite it in taraviih
the actual thing is this
that who can make this decision?
do parents have to make a decision for their own salvation?
or do children make this decision with their own interest?
so this decision
if it is children
then they should too make it with their own interest
if they are older
then also they should make it with their own interest
this is an expression of man's own interest
and you should never try to discourage it
it should be encouraged
among the scholars
there are many people
who memorized the Quran at an older age
that is because in giving reference
today however many media have taken birth
so that it is easier
the entire Quran or its teaching is within your view
if, on any occasion
any style needs to be looked at with respect to the change in style,
so that thing should be before you
so in our society
its tradition that continues
about this
there is no need to adopt a negative attitude towards it
what is actually wrong
it is actually forcing children into it
without their own assent
on some occasions
after excessive beatings
in the same way
without viewing their capabilities
at a special age
when they do not have awareness
and to subject them to such an atmosphere
that where they start developing a hatred towards Allah's book
and I have seen this
this needs to be avoided
so the criticism should be limited to that only
[Hassan] OKay, Ghamidi Saab
please answer the final question
related to this topic
you traveled around the world
in America as well
we got to know about some of the traditions of Hifz
only children are made to do it
because they memorize quickly
it is done with great interest
the span has increased
first it was at one or two years old
so now it is done at four or five years old
schooling is also going on
and they are learning little by little
and they have also been given a comfortable environment
so these kinds of new things
that are coming up
so do you feel that
we need to encourage them?
[Ghamidi] If the new things are good
then why would they not be received warmly?
it should surely be done
but the thing is that
in our society
this feeling that the parents have
that they need to make the child do Hifz
by beating him up
against his wishes
(as it is a very auspicious thing)
if he does Hifz
then he will help grant us Salvation
these are merely superstitions
that is, this thing should be regarded in any case
that even if you persuade your child
then is he doing it because of his own interest?
after a while it becomes clear
whether it is his interest or not?
if there is no interest
then let the child learn other things
when he develops the interest
then he will do it himself
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] The actual thing is the change in your attitude
and the betterment of the situation