Zach: Hello this is Zach Stolz from Chisholm Chisholm and Kilpatrick. I'm joined today by
Mike Mooney, an attorney with a wealth of experience in both VA disability benefits
and for Social Security Disability benefits as well. And we're going to talk about some
of the similarities and differences between those two systems as well as answer some
commonly asked questions about the interplay of Social Security and VA disability benefits.
So Mike, thanks for joining us.
Mike: Oh sure!
Zach: First, can we do a general overview of kind of the roles that VA and the Social
Security Administration play in people's lives with respect to disability benefits?
Mike: Well they're both systems designed I
think to reward people for good efforts. The Social Security System typically pays people
who've worked and paid in to Social Security. Everybody is hoping to retire and have some
money there when they do and draw that. For the folks who don't make it that far, who's
employments ended for reasons over which they have no control, they become disabled
then they can get disability benefits. Certainly that carries them over until they do retire.
Similarly the VA system is designed to reward people who've sacrificed for the country and
given something of themselves, physically or emotionally, or both and it can pay them
very significantly for that if they're -- depending on the level of disability they have.
Zach: And my understanding of Social Security
is you're either disabled or you're not. In other words they either award you the
disability benefits or they do not. Whereas in VA, you can be given benefits for just
a knee condition or just a back condition or a psychiatric condition or something like
that. Can you talk about the differences between the two in that sense?
Mike: It is a profound difference. With Social
Security, it's all or nothing. You're either 100 percent disabled from whatever, all your multiple
aches and pains and psychological issues or whatever, or you're not. With the VA, they
rate every single one of those components of your disability problem. So if you have
a weak knee, if you have an elbow that doesn't work right. I would guess 50 percent of all Social
Security Disability cases involve bad backs. So bad backs -- each one of those in the VA
system is separately rated and it sort of explains the difference in piece that is,
as I've mentioned earlier, a VA case could take 5 to 10 to even 20 years. Social Security
case typically takes 2 or 3 years. And that's in part because every single one of those body
ailments, every single one of the individual problems is a separate case with its own criteria.
So you can get a 10 percent for knee, you can get 20 percent for the other knee, you can get the low
back, you could get emotional, PTSD, and each one of those things has its own separate criteria
and each one is infinitely complex. And then when you add all those together, you have
like 10 cases in one or 20 cases in one, whereas, a Social Security case is very elegant, simple.
Just one overall question, can the person work? And at VA, you can get 0 percent, you can get
10 percent, you can get 50 percent. And then just to make it interesting, the VA doesn't know how to
add. So if you get 50 percent for one thing, and 50 percent for another thing, that's not a hundred,
whereas any place else would be. In fact 3 50's, I would say is 150, I don't know but
you could check my math there. In the VA, that's 90 percent, and that pays 62 percent of what 100
pays. So it is a system that doesn't reward adequately in my opinion which is another
reason why the system takes so long, is because veterans are constantly frustrated by the
fact that even when they win, they don't always get much for it. It's a situation, of diminishing
returns.
Zach: Right. The other part of VA benefit is unlike Social Security the VA benefit
has to derive from a service-connected condition. And so the Social Security aspect and system
is just a disability no matter how it was caused.
Mike: Exactly.
Zach: So VA that adds complexity to the cases
because the veteran needs to prove an element that he or she does not need to prove in a
Social Security context.
Mike: Social Security is easy because everything counts. Every ailment counts, every disability
counts. VA, it doesn't. It kind of explains why at least it's one explanation why
a veteran who wins a Social Security case isn't necessarily going to win his VA case.
I have a Veteran who's blind but not related to service. He also has all sorts of service-connected
problems. He gets 100 percent from Social Security because he's blind. I tried to convince the
VA that if he weren't blind, all those other conditions would be disabling. And I can't
get them to get past the fact that he's already blind. And I only bring it up to say this
is an example of how a Social Security award of 100 percent doesn't necessarily produce the VA
award of 100 percent because the blindness was not service-connected. I mentioned also earlier
that, if a--two additional disability systems that we haven't talked about that are run
by each program, Social Security runs SSI which is a program for folks who have not
worked and paid into the system. They got to be poor and they have to be disabled, 100 percent disabled.
The VA has almost an identical decision, system called pension, and it pays 100 percent. In
it, it doesn't have to be service connected.
Zach: Right.
Mike: It don't have to--have anything to do with service. All they have to prove is they
can't work and they are or - veteran during a war time period which is a topic for another
day but common sense would suggest the answer. So if they win an SSI case then that automatically
in this situation produces a win for pension. All they have to do is take their SSI decision
down to VA office, and they'll be awarded pension too. Both of those are need-based
programs, meaning they can't have any other income.
Zach: Okay.
Mike: If they get money from a part-time job
or anything like that or they're getting regular Social Security, that reduces the
SSI, that reduces the pension, dollar for dollar.
Zach: Let's move back a little bit to the
disability benefits. If a person is getting Social Security, why would they file for VA
benefits, for VA disability benefits? What are the advantages? You described some of
the challenges with VA, the cases can take a long time. There's a lot to prove to them,
why go through that to get a VA disability benefit?
Mike: VA disability system, when it works,
is a beautiful thing. If a person does get 100 percent benefits that pays about $3,000 a month
on top of what they get from Social Security.
Zach: So there's no offset between Social Security and -
Mike: No offset. Say they're on retirement,
and they're getting Social Security retirement. Unlike Social Security, a major difference
between Social Security, all disability at Social Security ends at age 66 and is converted
to Social Security retirement. Social Security disability ends at age 66. Within the VA,
there is no age limit to disability. So you could be 100, be 80 but still getting disability.
So if a person -- a veteran's retired, he could still go down to the VA office and say
he can't work if he can't, and he'll get disability benefits. And that money is paid on top of
the Social Security and it's not taxed which is significant because the typical Social
Security award is $1,500 to $2,000, and then you add $3,000 on that, so now we're talking
about $60,000 a year combined tax-free. So that's a pretty nice financial benefit that's
obvious but there's so many other things that happen. When a person gets 100 percent benefits
from the VA, there's lots of money available for their kids. If they go to school, if they
go to college $700 $800 a month. Most states provide free state tuition so they go to
school free. I had a client who had 5 children who was able to get 100 percent benefits. Every single
one of them went to college, every single one graduated. One of them is a PhD now, Psychologist.
It's just amazing and this is a family who didn't have the money to send their kids anywhere.
And his wife under the job with the government, it turns out she goes to the front of the
line because she's the wife of a disabled Vet. She gets super treatment and she got
a job at the post office was making a nice salary there.
Zach: That's great.
Mike: All because of the 100 percent award. They
get free license plates, free hunting licenses, free fishing license, you name it. The benefits
tax-free, most municipalities and counties don't tax the houses, tax--you don't have
to pay property tax, the rewards for being 100 percent disabled are enormous. And even smaller
awards have benefits. And of course if they have children, they get money for the children,
they get money for the wife.
Zach: Right. So in other words, all the pain of going through some of the VA process and
some of the wait time and some of the delay, and the amount of evidence that has to be
gathered and the arguments that have to be made by the attorneys and by the veterans
themselves can certainly pay off and do often at the end of the story, do pay off with some
nice, very earned and deserved benefits.
Mike: It can be a huge payday, the money does accumulate and I tell my clients when they
call we've got to keep playing the waiting game and that patience is a virtue. I've
said those two phrases over and over and over, I can't tell you how many times. And it is
very frustrating that it's so slow but it's worth the wait. And I always tell my clients
who say well I'm not sure why we're doing this I say, what else is going to happen?
I mean if we dismiss it, you're still going to be slowly moving on in your age and eventually
you'll be--it'll be 10 years from now, and would you like to get $400,000?
Zach: Right.
Mike: Or would you not like to get $400,000?
And that's why we hang in there. The other thing I would like to say about the two systems
is Social Security is so much more accessible. You know, they have offices everywhere. VA
has a single office in every state and it's hard to get through to them. And you don't
know who to call, they don't have phone numbers and they change their phone numbers and they
don't tell you. At Social Security, you can go to any one of the local offices because
remember, they also do retirement which is--disability is a small part of Social Security. Social
Security retirement is the big issue. And so they've got offices everywhere, friendly
people, relatively friendly people. They're easy to contact, they're easy to work with.
And also there's a lot of back and forth between the attorney or the claimant and that office,
whereas the VA, it's hard to penetrate. You know, it is shrouded in mystery and so how
you get through to them can be a real challenge.
Zach: Well thank you very much Mike for explaining some of the differences and similarities with
Social Security and the importance of pursuing VA benefits when you've earned them. So thank
you very much. This is Zach Stolz from Chisholm Chisholm and Kilpatrick, and Mike Mooney.