- I'd say I was one of the premier racists in Australia.
- And do you still hold those views?
- So you said that you were Nazi.
- Yes I said that I was a Nazi.
- How can we know that you're not trolling all of us by saying you don't believe this anymore?
- Because this is not how you do it.
- We've invited you into our home.
- Yeah (Pfftt) a real white nationalist wouldn't give you a serious interview.
I can tell you that for a fact.
- How would you describe your views?
- I would say that I'm a conservative Christian
and I also have very strong passions for traditional family values
as well as traditional home-making values as well.
I came from the anti-feminist movement, the MRA movement - the men's rights activist movement
and I believe that white men in today's society basically had the rough end of the stick.
- You described it as a radicalisation but how did you get into this way of thinking?
- So to get into this way of thinking, go back to say end of year 12,
so late 2014 you'd say, I started reading extremist material online you would say
mostly 4Chan's /Pol. If you are, like, reading that sort of stuff in 2015
it definitely reinforces your views because
that's when (the) refugee crisis happened, that's when terrorist attacks happened
all the time throughout the world. Every hour of every day is hate.
Every hour of every day - and I purposely filled my mind with as much hate as humanly possible.
- Lisa how did you get involved in the Discord server?
- Well I got involved by Justin inviting me.
I had to write my username on the back of my wrist and
then I had to show them the photo of it on a blank piece of paper, not my face or
anything, but the way they determine if you're white,
well like of descent, is your veins. If they (veins) can show on the back of your skin
that means you're white enough.
- So what kinds of things were you posting there?
- I joined this group thinking it was like right-wing political, like in my head I
was thinking like Tony Abbott here kind of thing, and I was thinking maybe
"oh I can just discuss conservatism and Christian values and all that stuff".
- So you say you have Christian views but some of the things you were posting were
that you were a Nazi, that race-mixing is vile, it's disgusting. You were saying
you'd bake swastika cupcakes, you'd been to a Hitler's birthday barbecue,
you've always loved Hitler, this kind of content. Did you believe that?
- I baked swastika cupcakes because I wanted to like fit in and it was like a meme kind
of thing and they said "oh, bake swastika cupcakes, it'll be funny," and I did.
With Hitler's views, the only thing about Hitler's views is
that he was a Christian and that he believed that a lot of like just keeping
like the country like just as it was because I believe
that Australia was doing so much more economically better in like the 1950s
when the White Australia Policy was enacted.
- It sounds to me, and I think people hearing this will think, that you're defending
Hitler and his views in what you've just said. - Yeah.
- Are you doing that? - Um,
It was a private Discord server and in those types of groups, in those circles I was
supporting them but I have never really said that in like offline, like two
friends in in the social circles that I have in real life.
- OK, but but you just said that Hitler has Christian values and views do you still believe that?
- Oh, no.
- OK - No
At the time yes, now no.
- Between like the almost 5,000 posts between you, I see that there's a culture
of these kinds of comments, but also that it's not a joke. You believe. You do not
like people who are Jewish, you do not like people of colour you do not like homosexual people.
- At the time? Certainly. Certainly. There is ... so the joke
part is how it's phrased, but you know you wouldn't be like going around saying
you know "I'm gonna go do kill people" and all this stuff, you know. You wouldn't
actually believe the thing, but you know at the time of those messages I
did not like people of other races.
- Do you think there's any harm in the things that you were saying?
- If you say something like that in that server or
even if it's on like a website or something, you know, (the) chances are that
you've inspired someone to do violence is pretty minimal, but you reinforce in
someone the belief, you know, you're reinforcing the ideology in someone and,
you know, you're not helping them move away from it,
you're encouraging them to move in deeper.
- Right, so you're not violent but you were homophobic,
anti-semitic, and racist.
- Yep. At the time of those messages 100%.
- How big is the white supremacist /alt-right kind of movement in Australia?
- No one knows.
- There's a thing in the alt-right - never keep this. - You just wouldn't know.
- Never keep this, because ... I don't know.
- The far right is just a bunch of people talking.
It doesn't matter what platform they're on, they're just talking to each other.
- Like I went to one, like, to a barbecue and
- The Hitler's birthday barbecue?
- Yes that was many years ago, and quite literally it was the most disorganised
thing I've ever experienced. Like, you know, I brought plates, brought cups, and
like, "how are you gonna eat if you don't have plates and cups?" and like, it's just
like it's not that organised at all.
(REPORTER VOICE OVER) Far-right activist and well-known Trump supporter Richard Spencer
bore the brunt of one protester's anger.
(SPENCER) He's become kind of a symbol ...
(SHOUTING)
- And how well-connected is Australia to the United States
in terms of this white supremacist movement?
- I was well connected. I used to be admin on one of Richard Spencer's Discord servers.
I used to be in around all the right circles, you know. Mostly overseas and you
have people from Eli Mosley, Mike Enoch, those sorts of people.
- And you just said that you're in touch with Eli Mosley or Elliot Kline, - Well, was, yes.
and he's the guy who organised the Charlottesville rally and someone died in that rally.
- Yep.
I knew him at the time. I'm sure he would call himself the main organiser but there are
probably heaps of people who dispute that.
(REPORTER VOICE OVER) We saw a car plough into a group of
anti-racist demonstrators, killing 32 year-old Heather Heyer.
- I'm just bringing it up because you're saying that this kind of talk online is in some ways
harmless because it's amongst a group of like-minded people, it's not going
anywhere else, but I'm trying to tell you that it does translate into real world action.
- Well I was gonna say, I was saying, like you know, you say something like that, you
know, it's probably that one thing you said didn't lead to Heather Heyer's death
but the collective of everyone saying that probably did.
- What was it like being a woman in that neo-Nazi movement?
- Unkind.
I remember them saying "just do as you're
husband says, do as your your partner says-- you should listen to, like, you
know if you're a male authority you should do this". There was a meme, a joke,
going through about white Sharia and that you should wear burqas because you
shouldn't be able to, like, be seen or heard. You should just only be at
home cooking and cleaning and all that sorts of stuff, and that you should, like,
just be silent.
- But you were also recruiting other women to the movement.
- I just wanted to find friends that I could talk about baking with because I
love food and ...
- I don't think that's fair because you were posting pictures of
women in Nazi uniforms and saying "join the sorority". - Yes
- So it's more than baking.
- That I did not create. - But you shared that.
- Yes, I shared that. - Do you feel bad about trying
to get women into that movement? - Yes, I do.
I would not wish that on any woman in any point of, like, time. I would never like
encourage them to join the movement. I think it's toxic to women.
- It's toxic to everyone really. - ...toxic to everyone.
- Like, I'll just ask you something.
Do I sound like a nice, well-put-together person from those messages in 2017?
- No. - No.
- Do I look like I wanted to do that?
- Yes
- We probably did. You have to admit ...
- At the time I'm, like, I thought that was OK and it's not OK.
It's really not OK.
- So tell me what contact have you guys had with ASIO?
- Um, we just had - we can't really discuss this. - Well I got a I got a beer and that was about it.
- So they were trying to find out if you knew of anyone who might be violent
within the white supremacist movement. - Yeah based, basically it's just ...
- And we didn't know anyone. - So how did you guys first get involved in politics
in Australia? You were in the young Libs, Justin. - Yep
- and were they aware of your ... - Oh god, no.
Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
- And what about you Lisa? - I was a member of One Nation
and I was an admin to one of their supporter pages , P.H.O.N,
which is Pauline Hanson's One Nation support group and it was now-defunct.
- and how did you both get involved with the young Nationals?
- Clifford Jennings for me - Yes same I guess.
We all just got ... we just got invited
- It was like, "well I'm gonna run for positions and there's something in it for you guys if you want to join".
- And then told me that he wanted me to run for a position to fill a seat
because I was a woman and I would be able to gain a seat more easily because of the woman card,
and I quote "woman card", and that it would be easy because no one would
suspect a woman.
- So he was branch stacking. - Yes essentially so he ...
- With white supremacists? - I'm, yeah, I'm guessing
- I'm guessing. - So when did you both decide
that you no longer have white supremacist views.
- I'd say it's not something you just decide one day. It's something that takes
time, you know. To go from being a normal kid to being radicalised takes months, years.
Same thing the other way, and you start to meet more people or you start
to see things that are challenging to your world views slowly and it starts to crumble.
- It's just, like, not like all Muslims are terrorists, like, for me, like, there's some
really nice Muslims. Like, I travelled to Singapore and I went to a
mosque there and, like, I was respectful, I wore a hijab, I covered myself because
that's what you do in, like, another country, you'd be respectful of their
culture, and I met a lot of people and they were very nice and it changed my,
challenged my world view and it changed, like, what I saw the world in.
- Why should people believe that you are actually out of the movement?
- If we were still white nationalists you reckon I'd sit down with the ABC?
- Why would we put down our faces and our real names? Like, why would we do that?
- Yeah, it's like if I was still a white nationalist would I sit down and
give you a serious interview denouncing the ideology unless, you know, ...
basically if I was a white nationalist I'd dropped the whole thing full of
in-jokes so I could tell all my mates.
- We asked you if you've been in contact with Blair Cottrell and you said no
but we know that you have and he is one ofAustralia's
premier white supremacist so that says to me that you are still in contact
with these people.
- I'm not. - He's not. I contacted him because I was like
look, this is what's happened and I don't know why and to be honest like I want you to -
I don't want anything to do with the movement, so like I don't want to deal with this.
- So what's your message for people, young people, who might be reading
these kinds of forums on the internet?
- Get up from behind the screen.
- It's never too late to come out. It's never too late
- What do you have to say to Jewish people, people of colour,
the vast spectrum of people that you have offended?
- You mean the majority of the planet? (Laughs) - Correct.
- We just ... - I don't even think I could say anything to
make up for what I said really. - What I said was wrong.
I feel like just
I couldn't imagine how you guys are feeling and to be honest like I should
not expect forgiveness for the things that I've said but know that I just
won't like say or do any of that because it's it's wrong.