So for this episode of Idea Channel,
we're going to be talking about cyborgs-- what a cyborg is,
what it means that we have cyborgs,
and kind of why we're interested in them as a construct.
And to do that, we're going to talk with my good friend, Rose
Eveleth.
So, Rose, we know one another-- we
met several years ago at TED.
So we were there for their education program.
ROSE EVELETH: Yes, TED Education.
I used to work there to do, like, scripting
and animation and stuff like that.
And so what-- and what-- can you tell everybody
what it is that you do now?
I'm the host of a podcast called "Flash Forward," which
is about the future.
And I also write about technology, science, and then
how the human body and technology kind of come
together in these weird ways.
You have a column for--
ROSE EVELETH: "Motherboard."
"Motherboard."
ROSE EVELETH: Yes, about design bias.
So basically all the ways in which
bias-- whether that's sexism, racism, you know, LGBT issues,
all that stuff-- is coded into science and technology,
not necessarily nefariously, but just
because it exists in the world and it winds up in our science.
And people think that science and tech are, like, pure
and don't have any sort of biases.
But that's not true.
Sure, yeah, right.
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
So I think that's one of the reasons that I was really
interested to talk to you about the idea of cyborgs because you
think and write a lot about the collision of technology
and humanity--
ROSE EVELETH: Yes.
---and what a future where that collision is both more complete
and more constant would look like.
Has that collision become so commonplace
that we could say that we are cyborgs?
Like, are you a cyborg?
I have an RFID chip in my hand.
I was going to say, I don't want to-- I don't want to put
you on the spot--
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
But I know that you have a weird-- yeah.
ROSE EVELETH: I figured that we'd get to it.
Yeah, I do have an RFID chip in my hand.
So the first thing people ask is,
like, are you being tracked?
No.
It can't communicate with satellites.
It's not that powerful.
It's just a little glass bead.
I don't know if you can see it.
But you can probably feel, like, that right there.
And it's just, like, hard.
It's basically like a little pill.
So what do you use it for?
Do you use it?
Or do you just--
ROSE EVELETH: So there are people
who do use them much more, like, in their lives.
So Amal Graafstra, who's the one who did this.
He's the founder of something called Dangerous Things, which
is where you can buy this kind of stuff online.
And he unlocks his house with his hand.
He has actually one in both hands,
so he can, like, do both.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Sure.
He unlocks his car with it.
He's got tons of applications.
A lot of people use them-- a lot of grinders
use them for their lab spaces where they kind of walk in
and they swipe their hand.
And most people don't notice sometimes
when Amal does it because he's just,
like, it's so natural to him.
He just kind of like walks in.
And then people will be like, wait a minute.
What did he just do?
I mean, and that really does the, like-- it's, like,
very magical at that point--
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah, it is.
---where you're just doing these inscrutable hand motions.
It does make you feel like a magician when you can be like,
oh, yes, unlocked.
It's great
So I think that this sort of gets
to the heart of one of the things I'm really interested
in, which is that when you think-- when
we think about cyborgs and when people talk about cyborgs,
there's a really specific thing, I think, that comes to mind.
And it's this, like, you know--
ROSE EVELETH: "Terminator."
Right.
Yeah.
Living skin over metal exoskeleton.
Living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
It's computer inside of human meat.
But the term itself, when it was at least first used,
it meant something much different or more broad?
ROSE EVELETH: More broad, I think.
So in the 1960s, two MIT professors
were thinking about, OK, humans are going to go to space.
And we need to figure out how to go to space safely.
And we didn't really know, like, what the impacts of space
were going to be on humans.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Oh, wow.
OK.
ROSE EVELETH: And actually, we still kind of don't know.
But so they were thinking, like, OK,
what are the ways that we can kind of take this, like,
meat cage that we're in and make sure that it is safe
and be able to function in space?
So they coined the term cyborg, which basically they
said things like this is something
where you incorporate exogenous components, which
is outside stuff--
MIKE RUGNETTA: Yeah.
ROSE EVELETH: --to the body that makes
it adapt-- that it can extend self-regulatory control,
which means, like, so that way you're in charge of it, right?
You're not-- it's not like you're
using a machine that's outside of you.
The machine is in you.
You're self-regulating the machine.
And that it's helping you adapt to new environments.
So, basically, they were saying, like,
can we build a cyborg that is a human that has
sort of other components in it.
And they don't necessarily specify machine components.
They're open to other things, too.
Maybe it's like algae in the skin.
Maybe it's like other stuff.
So, like, the question is, like, how
do you make sure that the spaceship
and whatever, like, is around them
knows what the astronaut needs without them having to, like,
push buttons to tell it.
That was kind of, like, the stuff they were thinking about.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Sure.
ROSE EVELETH: They also talk about things like hypnosis,
yoga--
MIKE RUGNETTA: All of these things are, like, cyborgian--
ROSE EVELETH: Yes.
MIKE RUGNETTA: OK.
ROSE EVELETH: Ideas that, like, you
can extend the function and control of your body
by doing these things and kind of like learning how
to better harness your mind.
They also talk about drugs in the paper and sort
of continuous input of drugs.
MIKE RUGNETTA: It was the '60s.
ROSE EVELETH: It was the '60s, right.
So this all kind of falls under this umbrella
that is beyond just like pieces of machine in your hand.
There's something that feels more true or accurate
to say that, like, you are a cyborg because you
have an elective radio broadcasting
thing in your hand.
Like, what is the-- what is the sort of tension
between medical tech-- this kind of thing-- and even,
like, glasses?
ROSE EVELETH: So I think that, like, people
talk about, like, language as a technology.
People talk about animals as technology.
The horse and carriage was a technology.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Sure, yeah.
All this-- all these things are technology.
So there's sort of the big, broad definition
of, like, what technology is in terms of, like,
how people use it and what does it do.
I think in this particular case, it's interesting.
Because, I think, because people come
in with different ideas of what technology is,
some people would say, yes, glasses
are a technology that makes you a cyborg.
Some people would say, yes, like, all
of the people out there who have pacemakers are cyborgs.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Yeah.
ROSE EVELETH: Other people would say, like,
that doesn't feel right, like that doesn't
feel like the correct way.
MIKE RUGNETTA: It doesn't-- which I feel, like, maybe,
you know, like, we have these posters around like "Blade
Runner" or whatever.
You know, we--
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
MIKE RUGNETTA: When we think about cyborgs,
we want to imagine this very complicated,
not sort of daily-- it keeps you alive kind of thing.
ROSE EVELETH: Right.
MIKE RUGNETTA: It's a-- you know, it's
this very sort of almost fantastic marriage of biology
and machine.
You recently wrote a "Fusion" piece about body hackers.
And your sort of main thesis statement
was there is actually a long history of sort
of the cyborgian, but situated almost entirely
in, like, the life of women.
I was wondering if you could sort of just
take us through that thesis a little bit.
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
MIKE RUGNETTA: That idea as it relates to these ideas about,
like, what technology is.
One of the definitions of technology that I've heard
is technology is a thing that men do, right?
And women have been doing things that have been controlling.
If we're talking about cyborgs as controlling the body
and sort of having these controls on what you're doing,
birth control is probably the best example
of something like that.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Sure, and you mentioned--
Taking a cycle--
You mentioned, like, period-tracking apps being,
like--
ROSE EVELETH: Yes.
Yeah.
Yep.
ROSE EVELETH: So basically, women
have been very aware of how fertility
works for a very long time, longer
than doctors most likely.
And then when you look at the technology that gets developed,
you know, Apple's health watch didn't have period tracking.
You launch this huge quantified self project
and you don't include the original quantified self thing.
My argument is, you know, I have an IUD,
which is this little device.
For people who aren't familiar, it's a little T-shaped device.
And it-- there are two different kinds.
But the one that I have slowly releases hormones.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Mhm.
And basically, it, like, lets me control my fertility.
And the ability to have a piece of technology that can
do that--
Yeah.
---is huge.
And I would argue that it's cyborgian.
I will say that from my perspective,
like my gut reaction, is--
ROSE EVELETH: No.
--that-- is no.
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
---is that, like, glasses, I'm like, OK.
Sure.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Like, sure.
All right.
I guess.
Pacemaker, absolutely.
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
That has computer chips in it.
But, an IUD?
I'm like, I don't know.
Really?
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
Like, isn't that-- isn't that just medicine?
What if the IUD had a little motor in it?
Right?
Like, just a thought experiment.
What if it had a little motor in it that then released
the progesterone or whatever?
I would-- I would feel so different.
Right?
Like, and that is a weird thing.
So I think now we're at a place where
we can talk about this pursuit of body hacking
and, like, what it means to be a body hacker.
Yeah, I think it's an open question within the body
hacking community about who is part of it and who isn't.
So I was recently down in Austin last year
for a conference, which is actually
where I got this implant.
It was the body hacking con.
It was the first one ever.
And so it was organized to kind of try
to bring together a lot of these different worlds.
So there was like the grinders who
we've kind of talked about who are implanting
this stuff in their bodies.
And I think those are people who--
MIKE RUGNETTA: OK.
ROSE EVELETH: --you'd normally-- like,
most people would say, like, yes, those are, like,
body hackers.
Negative.
I am a meat Popsicle.
And so it was like this very big spectrum from, like, people
who are implanting antennae into their head
to be able to see color to people who are putting butter
in their coffee.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Yeah.
ROSE EVELETH: And that all fell under the umbrella
of body hacking.
They specifically did not call it, like, Cyborg Con.
Right.
They called it Body Hacking Con.
I think that there are some people who would really love
for everybody to come together.
And part of that is like a political move, right?
Because if you lump grinders in with people
who are doing meditation, it normalizes sort of that--
Sure, sure.
ROSE EVELETH: --that fringe edge.
And that's--
Like this thing that's sort of easy to understand,
if they can say that they are in league with this other thing
that is maybe a little bit more challenging--
ROSE EVELETH: Exactly.
And I think they do want it to be more normalized if only so
that, like, doctors will be willing to do
some of these surgeries or whatever it is.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Yeah, that's the interesting thing
of working out the semantics--
Yeah.
---of all of this, which is you sort of have to work out what
is at the center of the Venn diagram where it all overlaps.
You know, when we call something a cyborg,
we immediately go to this place of technology because
of the word, you know, "cyber."
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
But that this all makes me think of Katherine Hayles' "How
We Became Post-Human," and her book and this idea
of post-humanity--
ROSE EVELETH: Yeah.
MIKE RUGNETTA: --is maybe like a more apt description
of what this is, where it's, you know,
it's trying to sort of figure out
post-humanity both in the sense of, like,
what comes after whatever we think of humanity now, but then
also kind of like what is the crisis that humanity is dealing
with that can be addressed in all sorts of ways,
not just through, you know, the cyber, whatever that means.
But I think the thing that, like,
Hayles talks about and that, like, post-human, I think,
focuses more on the human bit.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Yeah.
And I think that's the part that is interesting to me a lot
of the time because-- and this is a little bit separate,
but, like, when you talk to me about futurism--
Mhm.
ROSE EVELETH: --and, like, why is that, like,
futurism often seems to be the domain
of, like, rich white dudes.
And, like, if you want to live forever, that's great,
but that only really works if you have, like,
compound interest and your life is really good right now.
Yeah.
And I talked to some people.
And a lot of the women that I talk to, who I would say
are doing, like, futurist-like work who
don't identify as futurists, are sort of, like, I
don't care about jetpacks.
I don't care about, you know, bionics.
I don't care about that stuff.
I care about, like, how is humanity
going to be better and, like, love each other better?
Sure.
ROSE EVELETH: And, like, that feels like,
when you talk about post-human, there's more emphasis
on the, like, human and like what makes us human and how are
we all connected--
MIKE RUGNETTA: Yeah.
---than there is on the, like, what hardware can we use
to kind of, like, be better?
But this is something that Donna Haraway, who is--
Yes.
Here, we have her right here.
She says that the cyborg is a thing
that kind of marries market technology and the personal--
like, the body as a political battleground.
And so, like, maybe this really is a way
to work against, you know, those controlling forces.
Yeah, I think so.
And Haraway, you know, she's really
about the ways in which particularly women are
kind of, like, inherently subversive, right?
Just the fact that, like, the standard body is male and is
white and is, like, quote, unquote "able-bodied."
And then, like, anybody that has anything
different from that is already kind of subverting
sort of what it is.
MIKE RUGNETTA: Sure.
And the things that they're doing kind of
make them cyborgs anyway.
And there's also a good, I think, like, a sort of sidecar
or, like, sort of ride-along literature in disability
studies, too, because, like, they kind of play
on a lot of Haraway's points, saying,
like, if the female body is considered, you know,
somehow subverted or somehow sort
of unnatural and already kind of [INAUDIBLE], then,
obviously, the disabled body is like even more so because it
doesn't fit in the standard stereotypes
of, like, what people expect you to be able to do
and what a normal body looks like.
So there's this interesting sort of,
I, think push and pull between, like, what is the normal body?
How do you sort of enhance the normal body?
And then, you know, whose baseline are we talking about?
MIKE RUGNETTA: Mhm.
ROSE EVELETH: You know, what is an enhancement?
And what is, like, a medical necessity?
And that's like a battle a lot of the time.
By way of kind of conclusion, and not
to get to maybe mired in, like, figuring out
what the solutions are, but I'm really curious what
you are, like, excited about in the future of this pursuit
and line of thought?
Like, what kinds of things get you really
psyched about all of this?
I think the thing that I'm most interested
in is just, like, making this accessible to more people.
Because I think, in general, you know,
the people who are coming up with,
like, what should we do, what kinds of things
should we try are all kind of coming
from a very similar worldview and are coming
from very similar backgrounds.
So the fact that, like, more and more people,
like more women are thinking about,
like, getting into this space, that more, you know,
people of color are thinking about getting into this space,
I think, like, that will sort of become interesting
because, you know, they're going to come in
with different things that they want to do.
Going back to the question of, like,
do you want to identify as a cyborg?
Like, women can identify as cyborgs, I would argue,
if they have an IUD.
Not all of them want to do that, but I think, like,
giving people choices of, like, you
get to choose your identity, right, in the way
that we've been talking about, like, gender is a choice,
right?
Like, a lot of these things are choices.
So if we can open up more choices to people,
even if they don't take them, that
feels like a step in the right direction--
Sure.
Yeah.
---to start breaking down the question of do these boxes make
sense.
So it sounds like, to a certain degree,
like, what you're saying is that cyborg
can be a kind of identity, that, like, it is a thing that you
can identify as.
And then that comes with the whole sort
of expected host of questions and challenges and categories
and whatever else.
I think I'm also really interested in, you know,
if people can have whatever they want,
if people can make themselves into whatever
they want, what would they do?
MIKE RUGNETTA: Sure.
Like, what do they want?
You know, I'm interested in that.
So that's what sort of drew me to this world.
I think that people in it, you know,
they're really interested in pushing boundaries,
I think, in the same way that I'm
interested in looking at people pushing boundaries.
Right.
ROSE EVELETH: But I think they're also really interested
in, like, what is the way to be their best selves in sort
of a way that I think a lot of people just in general are.
And their version of this is to kind of, like, think about,
you know, how can I take my body and, like, upgrade it?
But I think it really comes down to,
like, how can I be the thing in my mind I imagine I could be?
Sure.
Like, for some of us, it's I will call my mom more.
Or I'm going to try to read 15 books this year.
ROSE EVELETH: Yes.
But for this group of people, it is, I will become so in tune
with my body and possibly edit it in some way.
Yeah, right.
And I think we all have things we'd
like to change about ourselves, right?
MIKE RUGNETTA: Yeah.
And this is just sort of the logical extension of that.
Rose, thank you so much for joining us.
This was super interesting.
It was a huge pleasure to talk to you about all this stuff.
Ah, thanks for having me.
This was so fun.
So we'll put all of the links where people can find you
in the description.
You can-- we'll put a link to "Flash Forward"
and your Twitter and, you know, whatever
else you want to give us.
Sure.
Yeah, thanks.
Let's high five.
Thank you.
Yay.
Let us know your thoughts about cyborgs and the cyborg
identity in the comments below.
I'm especially curious to hear what people
have to say about the cyborg as a symbol of progress,
but not just, like, technological progress,
like what kinds of forward momentum
does the cyborg symbolize beyond just, you know,
putting computer chips into people.
In this week's comment response, we talk about your thoughts
regarding how the media does or does not
influence your opinions.
If you want to watch that one, you
can click here or find a link in the Doobly Doo.
We have a Facebook and IRC and a subreddit links
in the Doobly Doo.
And the tweets of the week come from Spencer and Wharton
who points us towards a predictive text-generated
synopsis for a Batman animated series episode that's
as good as you expect it to be.
And [INAUDIBLE] 311, who points us towards a very interesting
Let's Play of "Dark Souls" that-- I just-- I
don't want to ruin it for you.
I shared it in response to a Let's Play of "Dark Souls"
where every texture was replaced with a photo of a crab.
And I think just as a pair, these two work very well.
And last, but certainly not least,
this week's episode would not have been possible or good
without the very hard work of these cybernetic organisms,
living tissue over metal endoskeleton.