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Turning habits into choices is a
big motivator for the teaching and
communication coaching that I do.
But before you can make
choices from your habits,
you first have to form habits.
I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach
Strategic Communication at Stanford
Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart,
The Podcast.
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Today, I am really looking forward
to speaking with BJ Fogg.
BJ is a research associate and
adjunct professor at
Stanford University.
He is the founder and director of
the Stanford Behavior Design Lab.
BJ also coaches companies and
executives around the world.
Finally, he's the author of two
great books, Persuasive Technology
and Tiny Habits.
Welcome, BJ.
>> Thank you for inviting me.
I've been looking forward to
talking to you.
>> Me too, so let's go ahead and
get started.
As many of our listeners know,
I have long been fascinated by
persuasion and behavioral change.
One of the things that first
drew me to your work, BJ, was that
you refer to something called
the information-action fallacy.
And I believe it's this fallacy
that helped you create your model
of behavior change.
Can you share with us what this
fallacy is, and
then share the three components of
your behavior change model?
>> For decades, maybe longer,
people have assumed that if
you just give people information,
it will change their behavior, and
this doesn't work very well.
And so I decided to give this
problem a name, this fallacy a
name, and that's what it's called,
the information-action fallacy.
And it goes like this,
if we give people information, that
will then change their attitude.
And then with attitude change, they
will then change their behavior.
Now, those links between
information, attitude, change,
that's not a very reliable link.
And even if you can change
somebody's attitude, that doesn't
necessarily change their behavior.
The second part of your question
had to do with the behavior model.
So this came together for
me in about 2007, and it is a model
that describes all behavior types
in all cultures.
And it's a universal model, and
it goes like this, a behavior
happens when three things come
together at the same moment.
One, there's motivation to do that
behavior.
Two, there's ability to behavior.
And three, there's a prompt,
something that says,
do this behavior now.
And when all those things come
together, the behavior happens.
And if any one of those things is
missing, there's no motivation, or
there's no ability, or no prompt,
then the behavior does not happen.
>> As the father of two teenage
boys, I have certainly seen
the information-action fallacy
happen in my own life.
Give them lots
of information hoping
they'll change attitudes, and
we don't see any behavior changes.
In terms of the model,
the question I have is around,
what is a prompt?
How do you define that prompt?
I get ability, I get motivation,
what does a prompt refer to?
>> And that's an excellent
question, Matt, because I mean,
the idea of ability and motivation
being important has been around for
a long time.
You can talk about skill and
will and so on,
which is effectively that.
The breakthrough really
was understanding there has to be
a prompt.
A prompt is anything that says,
do this now.
Your phone ringing is a prompt.
Somebody asking you a question is
a prompt to reply.
You looking at an action item on
your to-do list is a prompt,
there are a whole bunch of ways.
We could even be prompted
internally.
Sensing hunger is a prompt.
And what's important about that is
we've gotta make sure for
the behaviors we want that
the prompts happen.
And if we're trying to stop or
reduce behaviors, to minimize or
get rid of the prompts.
So you can design for
behavior change simply in some ways
by focusing on prompt design.
>> I see, so
it's finding the prompts that can
trigger the behavior you want, or
removing some of those prompts to
to get rid of the behaviors you
don't want to invoke.
>> Yeah, so that's one of the three
things, levers, one of the three
things you have to play around
with to get a behavior happen or
not to happen.
And even though you can write it in
three letters, B equals M-A-P,
it is, I think, a profound model
that can be used in so many ways.
>> Can you give us an example of
a way in your coaching or teaching
that can relate to the listeners,
a behavior they might want to
change and how they can use those
three levers to accomplish that?
>> Yeah, let's
say that you want to read more.
I mean, we've read all the time,
like emails, social media,
but you want to read books.
So number one,
define what the behavior is, okay?
I want to read this particular
book, okay?
Reading Moore's abstract,
it's not a behavior,
it's like an outcome.
So pick a book you actually want
to read,
so that's the motivation part.
Don't pick a book you don't want
to read.
[LAUGH] So that's motivation.
Next, ability, how do you make it
easier to read that book?
Well, you could get
a paper version of the book and
you could set it right by a chair
that you sit in all the time.
And then the third thing, prompt.
What is going to prompt to
remind me?
In this case,
the Kindle sitting there,
that is its prompt right there.
I don't have to put on a to-do
list, I don't have to put
on the calendar,
I don't put up a post-it note.
In this case, the object that I
need to read, the Kindle, or maybe
the paperback version of a book
is the thing that will prompt me.
So when you sit down,
you see the book.
It's like, I can read now, and
just open up the book and
continue reading.
>> Part of what you said that was
really enlightening for me was that
notion of being very specific about
the behavior you want to change.
So it's not just
reading in general.
And I set often lofty goals for
myself.
I want to do more exercise or lose
weight, but it sounds like what I
should be doing is being much more
specific, and that's, I think,
going to be really helpful.
Unlike my work on behavioral
change, which is focused on how to
change other people's attitudes and
behaviors, you focus on how we can
change our own behavior.
The unit of change you highlight is
habits.
Can you define what a habit is and
share some of the maxims that
you've come up with regarding
habits?
>> Yeah, so the way I define habit
is it's a behavior you do quite
automatically, without deciding,
without deliberating,
without thinking very much, and
we have many, many habits.
And the good news here is
habits are easier to form than most
people think if you do it in
the right way, and that's what my
Tiny Habits method is all about.
It just breaks it down, it's very
straightforward, and people can
form habits quickly and easily.
Looking at creating habits or
any type of lasting change,
I've distilled the keys to habit
formation, or engagement, or
lasting change down into two
statements.
Number one is help yourself do what
you already want to do.
So notice in that, so you pick
habits you already want to do.
Don't pick habits you don't want to
do and help yourself to it.
And you help yourself
to it by making that habit easier.
And there's different ways to make
it easier, so we're back to
ability, we're back to simplicity.
And you help yourself do that by
making sure there's a prompt.
So within that one statement that I
call Fog Maximum number one,
help yourself do what you already
want to do.
It brings together motivation,
ability, and
prompt in that statement.
So that's number one.
Fog Maximum and number two is help
yourself feel successful.
And even though that's four words,
that can be challenging to do.
But it is very much worth knowing
how to help in learning and
developing the skill.
Frankly, it's a skill helping
yourself feel successful,
because it's that feeling,
it's that emotional success that
wires and habits.
That's what causes a behavior that
you're deliberating, or deciding,
or thinking about turn into
a behavior you do without thinking,
or deciding, a behavior you
do quite automatically.
It's emotions that create habits,
and that's why the feeling of
success is so important.
Because when you do a new
behavior and you feel successful,
then you shifted on this continuum
of automaticity and
it becomes more automatic.
>> I think most of us think of
habits as a mental effort.
So the role of emotion to me is
really, really intriguing, and
setting us up for success so
we can have that feeling of success
as a reinforcing mechanism,
I think, is really, really cool.
>> You said the exact right word.
By causing yourself to
feel successful,
you're self-reinforcing.
And you can do this deliberately,
you don't have to leave that
reinforcement to chance or
to other people.
You can self-reinforce, and that's
part of the Tiny Habits method, and
we call that approach celebration.
But what you're doing is causing
yourself to feel successful
at the right moment in order to
self-reinforce and
cause that behavior to become more
likely and more automatic.
>> That's great,
and I've got lots of ways to feel
really good about some of
the habits I'm trying to take on.
I'm going to reward myself with my
favorite chocolate, I think.
I'd love for you to give me
specific advice on a habit I'm
trying to develop better.
As many of our listeners know,
I'm a big believer in paraphrasing
as a way to validate others'
comments and to validate
the accuracy of my understanding.
What advice can you give me to make
paraphrasing a stronger,
better habit for me?
>> So in other words, what you
want to hear from me is how to make
paraphrasing a stronger habit.
>> Touché, touché, yes, you already
have this habit clearly.
>> [LAUGH] No, I don't.
Okay, first of all, get clear.
I mean, you're pretty clear,
of course, you're super clear
on this, Matt.
For people listening, it's like,
okay, what does paraphrasing mean?
And then when somebody says
something to you, have that be
the prompt or the reminder to
paraphrase it back to them.
And then when you do that, and
this is where the reinforcement
comes in,
pay attention to how they respond.
And I think many times you will
see, if you're talking face to
face, you will see them light up,
or you will be able to say, yes,
exactly.
Embrace that as a positive result.
In other words, pay attention to
their response, that will reinforce
the paraphrasing behavior.
So let me paraphrase that on myself
again.
Number one, be clear on what it
means to paraphrase.
Number two,
know when you're going to do it.
What is the prompt or cue?
It's after
somebody tells you something.
And then after you paraphrase,
stay tuned for that reaction from
the other person and
really allow yourself to feel that
positive reaction.
That will help create that habit.
>> That's really helpful.
And the last piece I find most
helpful is I am often so focused on
just making sure I paraphrase.
That I don't take the time
to actually celebrate the result of
that paraphrasing, like, wow, that
person really responded positively,
or they gave me more information as
a response to my paraphrasing.
So that celebration piece,
which clearly I can see would be
reinforcing, and incent me, and
motivate me to paraphrase even more
would be really helpful.
So have that clarity of what I mean
by paraphrasing.
And to me, it's really distilling
down what the person is saying.
Use their response as my trigger to
actually initiate the paraphrase,
and then the big one for
me is celebrate.
Did I paraphrase that okay, BJ?
How'd I do?
>> I thought that was great.
>> I'd like to change the subject
a little bit to better understand
from you what role specificity and
repetition play in building a new
habit.
You often hear,
just keep doing it over and
over again, and it becomes a habit.
Now, I'm not quite sure you
believe that.
>> Yeah, exactly.
Well, specificity, be very clear.
Going back to the reading example,
don't just think I want to
read more?
Be very clear, I want to read this
book and you might even define how
much of the book.
I think that's less important than
knowing what book, and
you might even define the location.
I want to read this book while
sitting in this chair.
It seems that there's a big
difference to our brains between
read more and after I sit in
the chair, I will read this book.
And our brain can connect with
the second and prompt you to do it,
and you're more likely to do it.
The next topic around repetition
that's long been said, that
repetition is the key to creating
habits, and that's just not true,
it's emotions.
What role does repetition play?
Well, if you do a behavior and
you feel strong,
positive emotion as you do it, that
habit will wire in very quickly.
There's a type of habit that I call
one and done.
You do it one time and
the habit is wired in,
because if the emotion was so
strong.
For example, you buy a new car and
you drive the car to work, that's
not going to take very long for
driving the new car to become
a habit.
Because you're going to feel so
great, or you find a new way to
drive to Stanford that's prettier
and faster.
The sense of success of it's more
beautiful and
faster is going to wire in.
If the feeling of success is not
that strong, then it takes more.
It's like you're inching toward
the automaticity.
And so in that case, doing the
habit, let's say daily, allowing
yourself to feel successful, then
that will create a solid habit.
It won't be one and done.
If you can't feel a strong
positive emotion,
you need to repeat the habit.
But it's not repetition that's
creating the habit,
it's the emotion that you feel, so
let's be really clear about that.
Yes, you may need to repeat
the habit and cause yourself
to feel successful multiple times
to really wire in, but
it's not a function of repetition,
it's a function of emotion.
>> So let me give you an example.
I know exercise is good for
me, but I don't like exercising, or
it hurts, and I'm tired and
fatigued afterwards.
Forcing myself to continue to
exercise actually is working
against building a desired habit,
is what I heard you say.
Because I'm not having a positive
experience, it would be better for
me to find a more positive way to
get that physical activity,
is that correct?
>> Yes, exactly.
So there's at least 100 ways to
exercise.
Find the way that you like,
find the way that causes you to
feel successful.
And just because somebody runs
a lot doesn't mean running is
the right exercise for you.
I know it's not the right one for
me, that's for sure.
It would be very hard for me to
create running as a habit, even
though I'm really great at habits.
And part of being great at creating
habit is knowing which habits
to pick.
So don't pick the ones that you
don't like, or
don't want, or are painful for you.
>> I got it, I actually do
enjoy running.
And in fact, the reward and
celebration I have is I get the
opportunity to listen to podcasts.
So for me, that's positive, but
there are many other types of
exercise I do not like.
And I like what you just shared
that can help me look for
others that would be more positive.
So before we end,
I'd like to ask the same three
questions of all of my guests.
Are you willing to answer
them for me?
>> Sure, [LAUGH] let's go.
>> [LAUGH] Okay.
If you were to capture the best
communication advice you have ever
received as a five to seven word
presentation slide title, what
would those five to seven words be?
>> Remember what it's like not to
know.
>> So cool, why is that the advice
you would share?
>> I was mentored by
a brilliant man named Jonas Harris.
And this is back in the day when I
was a technical writer and
he was teaching me to be
a technical editor and
to teach technical writing.
And one of his big things was,
remember what it's like not
to know.
And essentially,
that's a way to say, have empathy,
and consider the audience and
remember where they're coming from.
And that has guided
my work ever since.
I moved away from technical writing
and technical communication and
other things, but remember what
it's like not to know, yeah.
>> That is such powerful advice,
because quite frankly, it's the
antidote to the curse of knowledge.
We all know a lot about what we're
communicating and we miss helping
people understand it, because we
come from the wrong place.
So that beginner's mind,
I really appreciate.
I'll be curious to hear your answer
to question two,
who is a communicator that you
admire and why?
>> There is a songwriter named
Shawna Edwards, and
I've been working with her
on songs about habits for kids.
So I've been working with her for
about a year, a year and
a half, and
she is amazing at taking concepts.
I'll write some draft lyrics and
they're just too complicated and
not good for kids, and
she'll just crunch them down into
a much simpler version that
still has the power, and
then she can put music to them.
It is just amazing to see how she
communicates with words and music
for the audience we're trying to
reach, which is kids from 3 to 11.
>> I think it's great that you're
trying to help kids in that age
group, and I think it's fascinating
to know that you're a lyricist.
I did not know that that was one of
the many things that you have.
>> [LAUGH] I see myself more as
the court jester.
>> [LAUGH] >> Working with someone
as talented as Shawna Edwards,
what a privilege and
I've just learned so much.
But mostly just admire what she can
do that I probably never will be
able to do.
>> It is a true pleasure to be in
the presence of people who
have mastered their craft for sure.
Final question, question three,
what are the first three
ingredients that go into
a successful communication recipe?
>> I wrote down these words before
we started, but it's a great kind
of wrap up of what we talked about.
Empathy, number one, simplicity,
and practicality.
>> Certainly, certainly, and
those ingredients can absolutely
help you be very clear,
concise, and in many ways,
compelling, and I appreciate that.
And I appreciate that your answer
to this question was a model of all
three of those.
Well, thank you, BJ.
I love your actionable,
specific advice, and guidance.
I encourage everybody to check
out the work you do,
especially the Tiny Habits book.
You have a free five-day course,
I am a graduate of that course.
I have found it very helpful.
Thank you for your time and
thank you for your insight.
>> Thank you,
Matt, it's been a pleasure to talk
to you.
>> Thanks for joining us for
another episode of Think Fast Talk
Smart, The Podcast from Stanford
Graduate School of Business.
This episode was produced by
Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me,
Matt Abrahams.
Our music was provided by
Floyd Wonder.
For more information and episodes,
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