- You have the app.
Now what do we do?
How do we get it out there?
Today we're gonna talk about how you grow
and launch an app in 2022.
We're gonna talk about the exact tactics
and strategies you need to win in the app space in 2022.
This is Raw Startup.
As the founder of Vivino,
I've been through this journey with Vivino,
grown from zero users
all the way to almost 60 million users all over the world.
We also have a guest on,
Jakob Mikkelsen is the CEO and founder
of Reflectly.
With over 10 million users around the world,
they own and run 22 different apps.
I promise you,
he knows how to grow an app.
And even grow an app bootstrapped with very little money.
- Look at the cohorts of those.
It's 20 times more valuable to be the user
that are coming from a journal,
searching for journal app versus a TikTok user
over a three year period.
- We'll tell you exactly what works today.
Make a list of nine different tactics and strategies
that work right now.
With Vivino,
roughly 70% of the growth come from number one on this list.
So do look forward to seeing what that is.
If you don't have an app yet,
please make sure you check out my other video
on how to build an app.
Also do consider subscribing to the channel.
A lot of good stuff here.
With that, let's get going.
Number nine, strategic partnerships.
Imagine you make a partnership with this big,
big company and use their distribution.
A real shortcut to growth.
I've seen many startups being hopeful around this,
but just be aware that it usually fails.
I've literally seen startups fail
because they relied on such a partnership.
Don't be one of those.
- It sounds good, right,
that you're gonna grow through each other's audiences
and these types of things.
I think it's very hard to do in the app world
because any app where you sort of do it with someone else,
someone is gonna feel like they're
giving more than what they're receiving,
and so to aligning those incentives
will be a tough one for you
and I will much more look into things
that you are in control of than strategic partnership.
- The core problem here is alignment.
Can you offer as much to the big company
as they offer to you?
Usually that's a no and that's why it doesn't work.
So what should you do here then?
Well, wait till you have a lot of leverage.
Wait till you have something you can give them
that they cannot get otherwise.
Ask yourself the following.
Can you offer this big company something
they cannot get otherwise?
If the answer isn't a clear yes,
you should not be doing a partnership.
At Vivino we've actually done this successfully,
but at a later stage in our journey.
We had something they could not get,
a big wine database with wine reviews, ratings and so on.
Today Vivino works with Samsung and Snap
and it's quite a success,
but don't try and do this early on.
Number eight,
organic social media.
We're talking about social posts on own channels
like Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok.
To be very clear here,
organic posts on social media
usually aren't a real growth channel.
It could be good for keeping
an already existing audience engaged for retention
and testing and so on,
but usually not to launch or grow an app
unless you have an audience already.
- In general,
we use organic social posting
as sort of just as testing to find
what we should run ads against.
- Some people think they can build an audience first,
say on Instagram and then build an app for them later.
It can be done if you have the right audience.
- There is these, you know,
that build an audience first and then go to the app,
you know, then they build apps afterwards.
And I've never experienced that, right.
But I've seen it out there
and some of them are successful, most not.
And you really need to be big
for that to be the successful, you know,
sort of case where you really have a lot of leverage against
that audience and a large, large audience for able
to do that.
- Another part here is that
there's a big difference
between building a media company that posts on Instagram
and building a tech company that built an app.
The way you do things is just very different.
Usually you need a different team too.
So sure, be active on social media,
but don't expect it to be a big part of your growth channel.
It's a small part of a bigger strategy.
Number seven, paid offline marketing.
This does sound a little bit crazy.
You wanna do old school offline marketing for an app?
Well, yes, actually it can work.
Especially right now where online marketing is so expensive,
suddenly offline marketing
looks like good value for money.
I would say this works best in the beginning.
We can still do things that don't really scale.
It's more about getting the ball rolling.
It really does depend on the app,
especially things that have a limited geography,
for example, can work really, really well.
I've seen it work for dating app Smitten
that went to colleges to try and get the ball rolling.
It is a way of getting the organic engine going.
- That's the key here.
Because it's limited, you know,
you're trying to drive a network effect of the school
or a city or town.
Like as long as it's pretty limited,
it's probably a great idea to do.
- You might not win the full U.S. market
with this strategy,
but it is a way to get the ball rolling.
Number six, PR, press.
Vivino's quite a broad app
that appeals to a lot of people.
Basically anyone who drinks wine
and it turns out that's a lot of people.
This means that broad PR really works well for us,
but that usually isn't the case for most apps.
They usually appeal to a more narrow niche audience.
This is about finding media
that talks to your exact audience.
- The problem with getting a TechCrunch article
is that it spikes up the numbers that they, of course,
like crazy maybe that week.
But what you'll also see is that because
there is no intent from the users,
they're not trying to find anything
that drive value for them,
they come here based on some sort of post, you know,
that came from trusted media,
media they trust.
That's why they go in there.
- If you get really big,
download spikes because of press,
be a little bit careful because it can mess up your numbers.
It can look like you're very successful,
but these downloads might have no retention
and have zero value in the long term.
They might be there because of the press,
because they're curious and might not have any need
for the exact app you are building.
Just be aware of that.
- It is about, you know, finding your narrow,
like almost the more niche, the better in the beginning.
Like essentially...
We always sort of messed that up, right.
You know, okay, what is actually niche
and what is not niche.
And I've learned right now,
I run 22 apps, right,
I've learned that niches are bigger
than what we think, you know.
It tends to be, right.
Because the thing about apps is that from day one,
you have a global audience. - Totally.
- And it's an important thing to remember.
That's just like...
And again, we go back to the intent, right.
But anybody can find you in the app store.
If you are the best at what you do,
in your small niche,
you will be successful.
You don't need to try and solve something
for everyone, right.
Just try and solve something for 0.00001% of those
and you will be successful.
And eventually you can build something that's larger
and you can, you know,
there is a ton of ways
where you can get larger eventually, right.
- Exactly. - But it's hard
to get there if you go broad too early.
- So this can work,
but you have to have press that matches your exact audience.
Number five, paid online marketing.
Now this one's interesting.
We know this one works,
we know it can work incredibly well,
but we also know it's a dangerous game to play.
- This is a dangerous one
because it is a great one.
But that's...
So it has its...
You know, you really have to look at it
from two perspectives here.
It was what really worked for us in the beginning,
and I think it's really important to outline
in the beginning.
I've seen a lot of people, you know,
and a lot of companies in this space,
so I'm not talking general,
but in this space
where eventually they do get
to a messy place due to it.
Imagine this, right?
You're paying more and more and more money
for worse and worse and worse use.
It's a very, very important thing too,
because we are trying to look for things
that create a positive networking effect for you.
The more you buy something,
the more you pay something for it,
the more it drives just better,
uses better, it's decent.
And paid marketing,
definitely performance driven paid marketing,
let's put it like that,
that has the opposite effect for you.
So the first dollar you spent probably well spent,
second dollar spent probably,
but worse and worse and worse.
So every dollar you spent, the worse it gets.
They have to go further and further away from the core
of people that they can find for you.
And eventually you're gonna get messed up
because now the problem is also
now you got used to those numbers, right.
Whereas like once it doesn't work anymore,
it's gonna be cold.
It's a bit like taking a plane, right,
and you take it, take it up, you know,
and it's fun, right.
But then when it starts to...
There is the tipping point
where now we're in trouble, right.
Because it's starting to dive
and when it starts to dive,
you try to pull up the planes still,
you really try to do it, right,
but it's hard.
It's a messy, messy journey.
And I've been through it, right.
So I talk out of my own pain here of going through it.
- So make it a part of your strategy,
but don't make it your bread and butter.
You cannot rely on this.
It will fail at some point.
Now let's talk about how you should use it.
First and foremost,
online marketing is incredibly good
for testing and learning.
It can show you what messaging to use
and even show you what to build.
- I would use it any day when you start.
Essentially, I wouldn't start anything
until I started running ads against it, right.
The earlier you are in the journey,
the more you should probably rely on it.
But before you even start an app,
let's just say you just have an idea around an app, right.
Set up a landing page on your phone, right.
Set up a...
It's super simple.
You can go and do it in any type of place
and then just an email sign up
and then run ads against it, right.
Just $100.
Whatever you have in your...
Do something in the beginning to try and drive.
I think, you know,
that people like this value prop.
- [Heini] Yeah.
- Value proposition.
And if you can actually see if they do, right.
Because what you're gonna realize
is you try 10 different things
and you drive traffic there
and you're gonna realize,
oh, this one they really like.
They didn't like the others.
And it's about, you know,
when the audience see something,
do they obtain it or not.
And I've seen it.
I've run so many things at this point, right.
And it's just you can feel it when it's easy, adoptable.
If something is easy, adoptable,
now you have a shot.
Then there's retention afterwards,
all these other things come into it, right.
But at first you need to be something that people like.
They wanna download it,
they wanna try and use it.
Then there's all other things you can solve afterwards.
But that's the early phase.
So I would use it anytime you're trying to think
about something where it's like,
are people actually interested in this?
I would use ads.
So this is a strategic tactical tool,
but let it not be your bread and butter
of your growth strategy.
- So remember,
don't rely on this as your primary growth strategy.
It will fail at some point.
Number four,
influencer and creator marketing.
This is about finding influencers
and creators the talk to the exact audience that you want.
That's the cool thing about this.
There's so many influencers and creators out there
that talk about all kinds of niches.
There's definitely someone who talks to your audience.
- I would say that's the modern strategic partnerships.
That's the strategic partnerships
you should actually think about.
But certain influencers,
they have your audience,
you want their audience,
and you build the tech
for that audience, right. - Yes.
- And there is a win-win for you going on here.
You can actually align incentives
in a way that drives great behavior,
great outcomes for both of you.
- Yeah. - So finding those...
And it becomes an important strategy as well
for you over time,
we rely on it more and more as well.
We have certain ambassadors out there.
We have probably more than ambassadors
at this point in time
and we sort of try to help them, you know,
sort of create a business for themselves as well.
- Yeah. - Right.
So if you can enable that,
that they actually...
You know, you have sort of a product
that is one of the most valuable for their audiences,
then it works out.
- One thing that works well here,
you just sponsors stories on Instagram
and it looks like posts on Instagram
don't work as well anymore.
The key here is to find the right influencers,
the right creators to talk to your exact audience.
Number three, app store optimization.
We're getting to the top and the stuff that really matters.
- The reason my app store optimization is so important,
and we go back to this, right.
That's the intent of the users.
These are the best users in the world.
The problem is it's hard to scale.
It goes down.
It needs to be the bread and butter, right.
But the people that are searching
for any type of utility where you pop up
as number one, those are the best users.
There's just no way around it.
And if you searching for, you know,
I need to scan a wine and Vivino comes up,
you know, you are solving a problem for them.
If you are searching for journal app
and I need to journal and Reflectly comes up,
you are solving a problem for them.
It might only be a 100, 200 downloads a day
that comes from it,
but those are the best 100, 200.
There's nothing that compares to those 100, 200.
And so it becomes...
And that's what I mean with older cohorts, you know.
So it doesn't look like a lot in the beginning,
but those cohorts compound.
So it ends up becoming a great business for you
down the line.
Because those 100, 200, right,
they compound, right.
Because they come in every day
and 15% of those buy.
Not only 2% or 3%,
but 15% of those buy
and eventually that becomes your business, eventually.
A great product is a commodity.
That's just expected.
You don't get anywhere today
if you don't have a great app.
The cornerstone becomes,
can you get the best distribution?
That's the thing you have to try and do, right.
You have to build a great product
and then you need to be able to at the same time,
find the distribution.
- Yes, these are the best users.
They're looking for something to solve this problem.
They're even looking for an app to solve
that exact problem.
Yes, these are the best users.
In short,
winning in the app store is incredibly important
because that's where the best users are.
Number two, content.
blogs, LinkedIn, YouTube, et cetera.
This is about building content
that drives users to the app.
It can be content on websites, blogs, YouTube, TikTok,
LinkedIn and many other channels.
I did bundle SEO in here too
because search engine optimization,
meaning Google and other search engines,
can really drive traffic to this content.
Basically traffic that comes from Google
to whatever content you've built.
This has worked incredibly well for Vivino.
We've built content on millions of wines
and that content drives millions of users to Vivino.
Something to be aware of here
is that this is something
that pays off in the long term.
It can really keep giving for years,
but it's not fast to build.
It usually takes months to build,
but it can keep giving back for years.
- I would say you can put
a bit more upfront investment into it.
You don't need to see return this year,
you don't need to see it in 18 months.
You can see it down the line.
You're probably gonna experience that
just from running Raw Startup, right.
You know, you probably see that this thing,
it takes time and it's just,
it's doing the grind every day, every day
and eventually you start to see it.
- That's right, Jakob.
It takes a while to build
but once the ball is rolling,
it's a gift that keeps giving.
Number one,
product led growth, word of mouth.
In the end,
this is what it's all about.
You have to have the best product
that really solves the problem.
They tell others about it and tell them to install.
- It's also probably number one in utility driven apps.
The reason being, of course,
just like if it's your friend or your mom or your sister,
whatever it is that is saying to you,
you trust that person.
And no ads or nothing
is just as good as someone you trust tells you
you should try this.
So it's an invaluable thing
once it gets going for you.
- Yes, this is the best way to grow
and it really works.
For Vivino,
this has been around 70% of our growth.
Obviously all products are different.
Some of them are very viral,
others are less viral.
But do assume that almost all product
have some kind of virality.
At the Vivino,
we've seen that the number of active users
correlates with how many people download it.
The more active users you have,
the more people will download the app.
Active users create growth.
Let's try and draw a virality scale
from left to right.
On the right,
we have the most viral product,
on the left a non-viral product.
Take a product like WhatsApp,
that's all the way over on the right.
It really doesn't make sense to use that product
if you don't have everyone on it.
So it's viral in its nature.
Vivino is somewhere, you know,
to the right of the middle.
You can work it alone,
but it is a sem-viral product.
Then you have something like Reflectly.
Not really viral,
but somewhere on the left of the middle
because people will tell others about it.
And then further on left,
you might have products that people use
but are not very proud of.
They won't tell others about it.
They're non-viral products.
- It's hard to really scale,
super hard to scale,
but it becomes part of the bread and butter
of your everyday.
Then you get it going, right.
Now actually you have something fundamentally
working for you.
- One piece of advice I wanna give you here
is try and build the best product for a small group.
If you build for a small group,
it's much more likely you'll find product market fit.
Once you have that, you can expand it,
but at least you have something going.
Also, when you look at this full list,
make sure you use more than one strategy.
Sure, number one always works,
will probably work forever.
The others are more fluid and they will change.
So use more than one,
preferably three that contribute in a meaningful way.
Otherwise, your growth becomes more fragile
and you can lose it all in a short time.
Let's try and avoid that.
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