- Can you be truly addicted to porn,
and if so, and that's someone in your life,
how do you help them, you know?
'Cause on the one hand, it's their cross to bear,
but on the other hand, we're here for each other.
Mended Light.
(upbeat music)
So first of all,
do you think people can actually be addicted to pornography?
- Well, yeah, I mean,
so addictions are just coping mechanisms, right?
And it's your place to decide
whether your coping mechanism is healthy or not healthy.
I mean, there's some pretty strong suggestions
that alcohol, drug use, tobacco use, porn,
like, it's not healthy.
- Right, well, and you know, clinically,
there are schools of thought that would say
that you can't be addicted to porn
because it's not a physical substance, right?
That it's more of a compulsion than an addiction.
I think we're splitting hairs.
It's still a physiological release, right?
It's something that you seek to escape reality
and to cope with whatever you got going on.
- And what's going on
is they're seeking the dopamine hit, right?
And so you have this little part of your brain,
kind of in the center, it's called the amygdala, right?
And neuroscience has learned a lot more
about the amygdala over the past 10, 15 years.
And it's known as the pleasure center in your brain.
And so when you use drugs,
when you have a meaningful relationship-
- When you eat a Twinkie.
- When you eat a Twinkie, right?
- Dopamine is released saying, "Do more of this thing."
- Yeah. The dopamine is released.
It lights up the pleasure center in your brain,
which is the amygdala, and you feel good.
You feel better.
- Yeah, well, it's the same thing with,
I mean, honestly with lab rats where they get the cheese,
and then they hit the button again, right?
'Cause it's reinforcing, "I get this-"
- I get more cheese.
- Yeah, I get more cheese.
And when it comes to pornography, first of all,
why are we even talking about this?
Because for a lot of people,
porn isn't against their values.
They see, you know, there's nothing wrong with it.
And then there's lots of different schools of thought.
I'm gonna tell you where I come from on this.
I am pro-sex.
I'm not an especially prude person.
When we were in Europe and we saw all the art
and the Renaissance art and your mom was like,
"Oh, the nudity," and she was very scandalized.
And I'm just like, "It's a human body. It's beautiful."
It is not about body shaming
or sex shaming to me 'cause I,
if you've watched some of our other videos,
I struggled with pornography.
And for me, the biggest reason to end it,
to break up with pornography as if I were
in an abusive relationship
because it's kind of how I saw it
is that it's not about sexuality or nudity.
It's about objectification.
It's about the glamorization of unhealthy,
abusive, shallow, objectifying relationships.
There is erotica that is more about healthy boundaries.
It's more about consent. It's more about love.
On a moral standpoint and from a clinical standpoint,
I'm less opposed to those sort of things.
There are people who, for their spiritual values,
just want to abstain from that entirely.
But for me, the real damage
of it is I am indulging repeatedly in something
that is shaping how I view relationships and sexuality.
I think I told you the first time I ever got
in a fist fight in middle school.
Do you remember what my disappointment was?
- That there wasn't the sounds, like the-
- It didn't sound like the punches
from "Indiana Jones," you know?
'Cause when someone gets punched in "Indiana Jones,"
it sounds like they got hit by a tray.
Wapoosh. (punch thuds)
It was just this dull thud and I'm like,
"Well, that's disappointing."
But similarly, pornography shapes our expectations
of sex where there's no foreplay,
everyone comes at the same time,
everybody likes it rough,
whatever I want to do to you,
even if it's degrading or humiliating,
you're gonna be into it.
And we don't need
to actually have a respectful, loving connection.
And 'cause the thing is even in casual sexual relationships,
there can be respectful connection.
There can be, "Hey, these are the boundaries.
These are the expectations."
And pornography is about, by and large,
it's about what's taboo.
It's about what's forbidden.
Again, there is a movement
towards more responsible pornography.
But I see it as so psychologically damaging.
And we say the things that we watch don't affect us.
That's bull.
If that were true,
why would companies pay so much for product placement
in their movies, right?
You watch a movie, the characters are eating Frosted Flakes.
And you can't have it both ways.
You can't say, "Well, what you watch doesn't affect you
but we're also paying millions to put Frosted Flakes
in this film."
What you watch absolutely does affect you.
It doesn't dictate or determine, but it does affect
and in help with the shaping process.
And that's why to me, pornography is something
to leave in the rearview mirror or to consume responsibly,
and a lot of people don't.
A lot of people get hooked on that dopamine
over and over and over again,
and it does harm, and it does damage.
- Well, and what did-
The Gottman's studied this, and what did they find?
- Well, John and Julie Gottman,
for those who aren't in the know,
are the all stars of couples therapy.
They've been doing this for, like, half a century.
Pioneers in research-based couples therapy.
And they did a longitudinal study
of the effects of porn use on relationships.
And they went into it.
These are not highly conservative, traditional people.
Quite the opposite.
They're based out of UC Berkeley, okay?
And they went into it with the thesis that porn
was not harmful or detrimental to relationships,
but they were gonna test it scientifically.
And they got a lot of backlash 'cause they came
out and they said, "Look, we gotta report on the science.
That's our ethical duty that the science is saying
it is, by and large, harmful to romantic partnerships
to consume pornography."
And my opinion is for all the reasons
that I've just laid out, right?
I don't think, you and I, it hurt our relationship
to go to Europe and to go to the Louvre and see all-
And there were naked figures in paintings.
I don't think that hurt us, right?
It wasn't the nudity or even the portrayal of sexuality.
It was how. It was what's being promoted here.
- Yeah, absolutely.
So you have to decide for yourself where it fits
in your life, if it fits in your life.
- Sorry, that was a major soapbox rant.
If you feel differently, let us know in the comments.
It drives the algorithm.
- But here's the thing about addiction.
It's always a coping mechanism for something else.
It's always trying to fill a void, any type of addiction.
And so you have to decide-
And we all have coping mechanisms,
and you have to decide in your own life,
"Is this serving me?" Right?
- Yes. 'Cause-
- Because eating ice cream every day
has definitely been a coping mechanism in my life.
- I remember that.
- You know, my children aren't little,
and I don't consume nearly as much sugar, right?
- That's what they were.
Well, 'cause you could be-
Your addiction can be something that's not-
Look, and setting aside the debate about whether
or not porn is healthy or unhealthy,
an addiction in and of itself means I am escaping.
- Right. - Right?
I am not facing, I am escaping.
It could be ice cream. It could be ESPN.
It could be something, anything in moderation-
Or not anything.
Most things in moderation are healthy.
But the addiction is, "This is what my life is about now."
- Right, the addiction is also a compulsion.
And it becomes one of the most important things in your life
to the detriment of relationships with real people,
to the detriment of your job,
to the detriment of what you need
to live a happy and healthy life.
And we're not here to tell you what you need
to live a happy and healthy life.
That's for you to evaluate and decide.
- And there are couples who say, you know,
they use porn to spice up their sex life.
So there are different ways to consume things,
but how do you help somebody who wants to leave this
in the rearview mirror and they're struggling?
Well, I can speak to that because that was me.
And Alicia was so great about this.
What you can do is make it safe to talk about
'cause a lot of people they don't say,
"This is what I'm struggling with,"
whether it's porn or anything else
because it's shameful- Not really.
But we interpret it as shameful
to be struggling with anything.
And we don't wanna burden another person with our struggles.
And what you can do is let the person know,
"I am here for you on this.
And you are not your weaknesses.
You are so much more than that."
- That's so true, right?
But if you come from a culture,
whether it's a religious culture or societal
or family culture where it's seen
as wrong or bad or shameful, or even sexuality in general,
because so often
we aren't having healthy conversations around sexuality.
And there are healthy ways to have those conversations,
and they're needed conversations to be had.
But if you were raised in a culture
or a part of a culture where, you know,
it's wrong, it's bad, all those things,
that feeds into the power dynamic.
And so it can start as a curiosity
and turn into so much more.
And I would say everything you said
about supporting someone with a pornography addiction
if that's not something that they wanna have
in their life is absolutely true.
And I would say you need to take one step back
from there and you have to be real clear that
that is what both people want,
both partners in the relationship want.
And you probably heard me say this in other videos,
if you're in a partnership
and pornography is a problem for one of the partners,
meaning they don't want it as part of their relationship,
and it's not a problem for the other one,
that's when you guys aren't on the same page.
And it needs to be a problem for both of you.
And I know very much so what that looks like.
I just made the assumption that it was a problem,
like, it was a problem for both of us.
And not between us, not in our relationship,
but in a previous relationship.
Like that was just my assumption.
And while for him, there was a lot of shame
and a lot of guilt, in truth, it really wasn't a problem
for him yet.
- Right. Which is a difference in values.
- Right. Right. - You know?
Which doesn't make him bad per se
but it means are we compatible?
Do we want the same things out of life?
- Well, and societally, he grew up in a society where
that was imposed on him, right?
And so that was the way he showed up.
But that's not what his actions said, right?
And so you can absolutely be on the same team.
You can absolutely overcome this,
but you need to start from that place of sameness
of this is a problem for both of us.
And I've talked to women who said, you know,
"I can't compete with those images on the screen,"
or, "I don't look like that," or all sorts of things.
And the truth is the addiction has nothing to do with that.
It has nothing to do with you not being good enough
or pretty enough or anything like that.
It genuinely has to do with their challenges, their be-
The person who has the addiction,
their challenges, their behaviors, their coping mechanisms.
And so when you take ownership for those challenges,
it stunts the growth
because the reality is you can't fix it.
You can support them. You can help them.
But you can't fix it.
And no amount of any alteration to your physical appearance
or anything like that is going to change that.
- 'Cause it's not about whether you're attractive enough
or what you look like or what you do in bed.
It's about porn is- there's some overlap
but it's really its own thing used to cope with life.
I think in our case, something that you had said to me
and that we had agreed upon is
that if I was feeling drawn to it,
if I was feeling the urge to look at it,
that I could simply talk to you about it.
That I could say I'm going through this.
And instead of the world is ending
or instead of being shamed for it,
that I could just say that to you.
And you could say, "What do you need?"
And sometimes what I needed was sex
'cause I needed an outlet and a release
for all the emotions I had going on.
Sometimes I needed to be held.
Sometimes I wanted to go get Mexican food.
Very often it was Mexican food.
Honestly, that's the addiction to have
if you're gonna have one.
- So often our demons, you know, that we hide,
they lose their power when we talk about them, right?
So just having someone you could talk
to about what you were struggling in the moment with,
that was just half the battle.
And if you're in a healthy enough place with your partner
that your partner can be that person, that's great.
For a lot of people, particularly women,
that's triggering, you know?
So get someone else that can be your buddy in that way.
It doesn't need to be the woman's or the male's-
It doesn't have to be the other partner if that's too much.
And I've had friends where, you know,
they have filters, they have all sorts of things, you know,
on their internet and stuff like that.
And their spouse or their partner will go
to great lengths to get around those filters.
It takes a lot of effort to get to the pornography,
and that's where I would question,
"Is this really a value both of you share?"
Because if you're willing to put
that much effort into deceit,
is that really something that's important?
And I would super caution staying
in a relationship for years and years
and even decades where that is perpetuated
because it can be so devastating
and detrimental for their partner who doesn't agree.
- Now, I'll say this. I wanna close with this.
If your value is to consume pornography,
I just wanna encourage you to consume,
honestly, responsible pornography.
As I was saying, there is a big push right now,
I've been reading on this,
to create erotica that portrays healthy relationships,
that portrays healthy boundaries,
that portrays respect instead of denigration or humiliation.
If the thing that you were interested in
in terms of your entertainment is humiliating
or using another person,
I would ask yourself psychologically why that is
and what that is saying about where you're
at in life right now and get some support.
Honestly. It's not about naked people and sex.
It's about, "What am I teaching my brain
about sex and relationships?"
And if your value is to have none
of that in your life, again, seek some support.
We have therapists on staff who are qualified
to help you with this.
There's a link in the description
for a complimentary 15-minute consultation with one of them.
If you found this video helpful
but you want more of me crying,
then you can watch another version,
which is what to do if your husband is addicted to porn.
Check that out.
How do you navigate this?
What are your thoughts on pornography?
Can it be healthy and how do you navigate addiction, period,
in your life or in a relationship?
We want to hear your thoughts in the comments below.
- And remember to keep shining. We need your light.
(upbeat music)
♪ Shine on, shine on ♪
- Hey, there's that video I was talking about.
The one where I cry.
(sighs) It's all for you.