THOMAS: Well, regeneration takes place at the level of the subconscious,
and conversion takes place at the level of consciousness.
So, let me give you an example. My wife is an Irish Presbyterian. She was raised in
a godly, spiritual home. She went to church twice on Sunday and Sunday school.
She sat around the piano playing hymns with her mother on Sunday afternoon
and she doesn't remember a single day that she wasn't a Christian. She has never known
a day when she didn't know and love the Lord Jesus. My story is very different.
So, for the first eighteen years of my life, I didn't even think Jesus existed.
I had begun to swallow the postmodern view of history. We can't be certain about anything in
the past and that science had all the answers. And then, my best friend in school gave me a
copy of John Stott's Basic Christianity. I read it and within a matter of days was on my knees
praying the sinner's prayer, and I think that my regeneration and conversion were
almost simultaneous. But with Rosemary, you know, when was she converted? I don't know
because she may well have been regenerated in her mother's womb. But Steve Lawson isn't here. We
had this debate whether this was possible. As a Presbyterian, I am okay with that.
GODFREY: Aren't there biblical instances of children regenerated in their mother's womb?
THOMAS: John the Baptist.
GODFREY: Yeah.
THOMAS: Samuel.
GODFREY: John the Presbyterian.
PARSONS: Yeah, that's right. And we call him "John the Baptizer."
Whoever asked this question, it's an extremely insightful question, and those of you who
are pastors, and in seminary, you of course know that the history of that question is very,
very comprehensive and it's not as easy of an answer as some might think.
It has actually been the Dutch theologians that I have learned from the most on this very question.
GODFREY: And all other questions.
PARSONS: That's right, but in truth,
you know, Calvin wrestled with this, you know. It has been a question that has been wrestled
with throughout the ages. There is language in some of the Dutch theologians about the
seed of regeneration being planted. I think one thing that is important is that we do understand
very plainly that regeneration, that is to say the making alive or the quickening of our
dead hearts by the Holy Spirit precedes our ability to be converted, precedes our ability to
believe. You know, when we are dead in our sins and trespasses, we do not have, as Derek said,
we don't have the freedom to choose. We can only do what we are capable of doing. We can only
choose what we are capable of choosing, and when we are dead in our sins and trespasses we can't
choose life. It's only by the regenerating or the quickening or the making alive power of the Holy
Spirit that enables us to believe, that enables us to have faith. And so, I trust we understand that.
What is important is that we understand that there is nothing else that has to be mediated to us
between that regeneration and our conversion; that is to say it is all the work of God, all
the work of the Spirit. And so, it is immediate in that sense. It is without any other mediation.
It is all the work of God, all the work the Spirit that regenerates us and brings us to faith.