ORIGINALLY WHEN THE STORY BROKE THERE WAS A
LOT OF MISCOMMUNICATION, A LOT OF CHAOS, AND PEOPLE THOUGHT
THAT THERE WERE MULTIPLE SUSPECTS.
BUT AS OF NOW THERE
WAS ONE SUSPECT AND HE WAS KILLED AS A RESULT OF A POLICE
BOMB.
WE WILL GET TO THOSE DETAILS IN A SECOND BUT FIRST
LET'S IDENTIFY HIM --
>> HERE IS A PICTURE OF HIM, AND
APPARENTLY HE WAS ALSO A MEMBER
OF THE MILITARY --
>> I REALLY WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT
SOMETHING THAT WE ARE CLAIMING, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT POLICE
OFFICIALS IN DALLAS ARE CLAIMING.
IN FACT, DURING THE
PRESS CONFERENCE THE POLICE CHIEF SAID THAT MICAH JOHNSON
WAS CLEAR ABOUT HOW HE WAS ANGRY AT BLACK LIVES MATTER.
HE WAS
OBVIOUSLY CRAZY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS ANGRY ABOUT, BUT IT
DOESN'T SEEM LIKE HE WAS IN ANY WAY INVOLVED WITH BLACK LIVES
MATTER, HE WAS JUST ANGRY AT THE MOVEMENT AND ALSO ANGRY AT THE
POLICE BRUTALITY TOWARD BLACK INDIVIDUALS.
>>THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT PEOPLE SHOULDN'T JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS
AND CONDEMNED THE ENTIRE MOVEMENT BECAUSE A GUY WHO
MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT BE RELATED TO IT, PEOPLE SHOULD JUMP.
>>THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING.
>>IT IS UNBELIEVABLE.
>> AT THE SAME TIME, ACCORDING TO THE COPS THE GUY SAID HE
WANTED TO KILL WHITE PEOPLE AND WHITE POLICE OFFICERS.
AND HE
WAS UPSET ABOUT THE SHOOTING OF BLACK INDIVIDUALS IN AMERICA.
NOW, HIS WAY OF SHOWING THAT WAS DEEPLY IRONIC.
IF YOU ARE UPSET
ABOUT INNOCENT PEOPLE BEING KILLED, THE WAY TO SHOW THAT IS
NOT TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE, WHICH IS WHAT HE DID.
THESE
OFFICERS DIDN'T DO THE SHOOTINGS HE WAS UPSET ABOUT, AND EVEN IF
THEY HAD THAT IS NOT HOW YOU DEAL WITH IT, YOU DEAL WITH IT
IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.
BUT THAT IS WHY SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO
DO THE SHOOTINGS ARE CRAZY, WHETHER IT IS THE GUYS DOING
ABORTION THINGS OR THE MUSLIM GUYS DOING THEIR BOMBINGS AND
SHOOTINGS, OR THIS GUY.
THIS COULDN'T BE MORE
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, AND IF HE WAS CONCERNED AS HE SAYS ABOUT THE
SHOOTING OF UNARMED BLACK MEN, WELL, THE PRINCIPLE REASON THAT
POLICE DO THAT IS, AS I SAID 1 MILLION TIMES, IS THE TRAINING.
THE TRAINING THEM TO BE JUMPY.
EVERYTHING IS A THREAT AND YOU
REMOVE THE THREAT.
NOW, WHAT DID YOU DO, MICAH JOHNSON?
HE'S
DEAD, BUT WHAT DID HE DO?
YOU JUST MADE ALL THE COPS IN THE
COUNTRY FAR MORE JUMPY, NOW FOR JUSTIFIABLE REASONS.
SO THIS
COULD LEAD TO MORE PEOPLE, BLACK, WHITE, ETC.
-- COPS ARE
GOING TO BE JUMPY, THEY DON'T KNOW IF A BLACK OR WHITE GUY IS
AROUND THE CORNER ON THE ROOFTOP.
THEY MIGHT BE MORE
JUMPY AND IT MIGHT LEAD TO WORSE RESULTS, THAT IS WHY VIOLENCE IS
ALWAYS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, ALWAYS A TERRIBLE IDEA, LET ALONE THE
FACT THAT IT IS DEEPLY IMMORAL, AND THAT IMMORALITY IS
THEORETICALLY WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO SOLVE AND OBVIOUSLY
THE WORST POSSIBLE WAY, AND YOU DID NOT ACCOMPLISH ANY OF THOSE
OBJECTIVES.
ANA MENTIONED THE PROTESTS WERE PEACEFUL IN THE
BEGINNING.
BY THE END, FIVE PEOPLE ARE DEAD, 12 ARE SHOT, IT
IS NOT PEACEFUL, BUT YOU CAN'T ASCRIBE THAT GUY ON THE ROOF
WITH EVERYONE ELSE WHO -- THERE IS PICTURES OF THEM TAKING
PICTURES WITH THE COPS, THE COPS WERE GREAT.
THE PICTURE I KEEP
THINKING ABOUT IS A BLACK PROTESTER, WITH A NO JUSTICE, NO
PEACE SIGN, WITH A WHITE AND A BLACK COP RIGHT NEXT TO HIM.
>>AND TWEETED BY THE DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT, SHOWING
HOW PROUD THEY WERE OF THIS PROTEST, EVEN ABOUT THE
POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY.
THAT IS WHAT THE CONVERSATION NEEDS TO BE.
>>AND THAT IS WHY VIOLENCE IS SO STUPID, BECAUSE IN THAT MOMENT
WE WERE KIND OF GETTING THERE.
BLACK, WHITE, ETC., THERE WERE
AMERICANS UPSET ABOUT ALL THESE UNARMED BLACK GUYS AND KILLED
ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THEY DO THE MOST AMERICAN THING YOU CAN DO,
FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, THEY PROTEST, AND THE COPS REACT TO
THAT PROTEST BY EMBRACING THEM.
GREAT, WE ARE GETTING THERE.
AND
WHAT RUINS IT IS SOME IDIOT ON A ROOFTOP WHO IN HIS OWN MIND IS
SEEKING GLORY -- WHAT DO I SAY, AND EVERY SHOOTING WHETHER IT IS
A HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTING, THE GUY IN ORLANDO SHOOTING UP A GAY
NIGHTCLUB, THE GUY WHO SHOT UP THE KINDERGARTEN IN CONNECTICUT
-- THEY ARE ALL LOOKING FOR SOME SORT OF GLORY, RIGHT?
AND THIS
GUY IN HIS MIND, HE IS THE AVENGER.
AND INSTEAD HE TOOK A
MOMENT THAT WAS WORKING, AND RUINED IT.
AND KILLED ALL THOSE
POOR GUYS -- THEY'VE GOT FAMILY MEMBERS, YOU WILL SEE ABOUT THEM
SOON.
WE WILL SEE THEIR KIDS, THEIR PARENTS, YOU WILL SEE THEM
CRYING.
THAT IS WHY YOU DON'T KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE, IT IS
HEARTBREAKING AND SO FRICKING WRONG.
>>AND ALL THESE ISSUES INSTANTLY GET SO POLARIZED WE LOSE SIGHT
OF THE GRANDER ISSUE, THE FACT THAT THE VAST, VAST MAJORITY OF
POLICE OFFICERS ARE THERE PROTECTING PEOPLE, AND EVEN IN
THIS INCIDENT AFTER THE SHOOTING AS IT WAS OCCURRING, DALLAS
POLICE OFFICERS PUSHING INNOCENT BLACK MEN THAT WERE PROTESTING
OUT OF THE WAY, AND COPS RUNNING TOWARDS THE FIRE TO CONTINUE
PROTECTING THE VERY PEOPLE THAT ARE PROTESTING AGAINST
INJUSTICES IN POLICING.
THAT IS SO LOST IN THIS ACTION BY A
CRAZY PERSON.
>>AND I WANT TO BE SUPER CLEAR, BEN PUT IT GREAT RIGHT THERE --
THE PROTESTS ARE NOT AGAINST COPS, THEY ARE AGAINST THE
INJUSTICES IN THE SYSTEM.
SO AT THE SAME TIME, IF YOU ARE UPSET
ABOUT WHAT MICAH JOHNSON DID, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WE ARE
ALL UPSET ABOUT WHAT HE DID, ANY DECENT HUMAN BEING IS HORRIFIED
BY WHAT HE DID.
SO IF YOU ARE UPSET AT THAT, YOU SHOULD BE
UPSET ABOUT HIM AND WHAT HE DID, AND NOT ATTRIBUTE THAT TO ALL
THE PROTESTERS THERE WHO WERE GETTING ALONG WITH THE COPS
GREAT, WHO WERE AMERICANS DOING THE MOST AMERICAN THING THEY
COULD DO, AND HANDLING IT IN A POLITICAL WAY, THE CORRECT WAY
TO BANK TO TAKE IT OUT ON PEOPLE DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY BECAUSE
SOMEONE ELSE DID IT THE WRONG WAY, AGAIN, WOULD BE DEEPLY
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, DEEPLY IMMORAL, AND WOULD GET US BACK
INTO A CYCLE OF VIOLENCE THAT NO ONE GAINS FROM.
>>ABSOLUTELY.
IN TERMS OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SUSPECT, HE IS
DECEASED.
ACCORDING TO MEDIAITE --
>>THAT IS ACTUALLY AN UNPRECEDENTED MOVE BY POLICE
OFFICIALS, AND THERE IS SOME DEBATE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY
SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT -- I FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE COMMENTING ON
THAT, I FEEL LIKE IF HE OPENED FIRE ON THE POLICE OFFICIALS
WHILE HE WAS HIDING IN A GARAGE AT EL CENTRO COLLEGE, THE
COPS NEED TO DO WHAT THEY NEED TO DO, HE IS OBVIOUSLY A
THREAT, HE KILLED FIVE OFFICERS.
>>I WILL DISAGREE BUT I'M ALSO UNCOMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT IT,
WE ALL ARE.
THE REASON IS I'M NOT IN THE COPS' SHOES, AND
THOSE ARE NOT GOOD SHOES TO BE IN AT THE MOMENT.
YOU LOST YOUR
FRIENDS, NOT JUST FELLOW OFFICERS, NOT JUST THAT YOU ARE
IN A THREAT, BUT YOU ARE ANGRY, UNDERSTANDABLY SO.
AND IF I KNOW
THE GUY WHO SHOT THEM IS RIGHT IN THERE AND HE WON'T COME OUT
AND SURRENDER, AND HE IS PUTTING ME IN DANGER, I WOULD BE FURIOUS
AND I WOULD WANT TO DO THE SAME THING.
BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT
RIGHT.
WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE FROM THE POLICE EXPO NATION TODAY IS,
THEY SENT IN THE ROBOT, THE ROBOT IS A BOMB ROBOT -- FIRST
OF ALL THEY'VE USED ROBOTS IN THE PAST THAT WERE NOT BOMBS TO
NEGOTIATE, EVEN TO DELIVER PEOPLE PIZZA, THAT WORKED IN
THAT INSTANCE, HE LAID DOWN HIS ARMS AND THEY GOT HIM OUT.
NOW
NOBODY WILL TRUST THE ROBOTS BECAUSE SOME OF THEM HAVE BOMBS.
SO DID YOU JUST RUIN HOSTAGE NEGOTIATIONS FOR ANYONE TRYING
TO DO IT THE RIGHT WAY?
IN THIS CASE -- I WANT TO BE SUPER CLEAR
-- ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE SWAT GUYS ON HIM?
OF COURSE.
IN MY
ASKING THE COPS TO WALK IN WHEN HE HAS THE WEAPON?
NO, HE JUST
SHOT 12 COPS, I'M NOT ASKING THEM TO WALK INTO THAT.
I'M
ASKING FOR US TO DO WHAT WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE, WAIT HIM OUT.
AGAIN, I KNOW, YOU ARE RIGHT, IF YOU SAY EASY FOR YOU TO SAY,
CENK, THAT'S RIGHT.
I'M NOT IN THEIR SITUATION AND I FEEL
TERRIBLE ABOUT IT, BUT IT IS INCUMBENT UPON US AS SOCIETY TO
DO THE RIGHT THING AND NOT SINK TO THE LEVEL OF THESE GUYS.
SO I
THINK WE SHOULD HAVE GONE WITH STANDARD PROCEDURE, WAIT HIM OUT
AS HARD AS THAT IS.
IF HE POKES HIS HEAD OUT AND IT LOOKS LIKE
YOU ARE IN DANGER, THIS IS WHEN YOU SHOOT.
DON'T GET ME WRONG.
I'VE CRITICIZED OTHER COPS IN THE PAST FOR SHOOTING TOO
QUICKLY, IN THIS CASE THAT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE
SITUATION.
IF HE POKES HIS HEAD OUT AND YOU ARE IN ANY KIND OF
THREAT, PUT HIM DOWN, I'M 100% WITH YOU, HE JUST SHOT PEOPLE
COME NO QUESTION HE IS DANGEROUS.
BUT PUTTING A BOMB IN
THERE IN A DOMESTIC SITUATION, WHICH WE NORMALLY DO IN WAR, AND
BLOWING HIM UP, THAT IS A BAD PRECEDENT.
AS MUCH AS WE ALL
WERE SUPER ANGRY AT THAT GUY, AND EMPATHIZED WITH THE COPS, I
DON'T WANT TO SET THAT PRECEDENT, I DON'T KNOW
WHERE THAT GOES FROM HERE.
>>THAT BRINGS UP A SCARY PRECEDENT AND ONE THAT NEEDS TO
BE FIGURED OUT, WHETHER OR NOT WE WOULD EVEN APPROVE OF THE
CONCEPT OF USING BOMB ARMED ROBOTS IN POLICING IN OUR OWN
COUNTRY, AND OF COURSE ALSO IT IS ESPECIALLY -- IT CREATES A
PROBLEM IN THE OPTICS OF THIS SITUATION WHEN THE WHOLE PROTEST
IS ABOUT OVERREACH OF FORCE BY POLICE OFFICERS, TO DO THAT.
AT
THE SAME TIME, I DON'T REALLY HAVE A GRASP OF WHAT THE
DIFFERENCE IS ONCE HE HAS ALREADY FIRED AT POLICE, THEY
ARE TRYING TO KILL HIM BY SHOOTING BACK, THEY ARE JUST
KILLING HIM IN A DIFFERENT WAY, IT IS THE SAME END RESULT
WITHOUT HIM HAVING TO POKE OUT AND SHOOT AGAIN AND RISK LIVES,
WHAT IS THE MORAL DIFFERENCE?
>>THAT IS A SUPER QUESTION, TO ME THE MORAL DIFFERENCE IS, AS I
UNDERSTAND IT, FOR EXAMPLE IN ANOTHER STORY ABOUT FRESNO
SHOOTING, THEY SHOOT THE GUY TWICE, HE GOES DOWN -- ONCE HE
GOES DOWN, THEN YOU ARE AT A DIFFERENT DECISION POINT THEN
WHEN YOU WERE WHEN YOU THOUGHT HE MIGHT BE POINTING A GUN AT
YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE.
SO ONCE HE HAS ENTERED AT BUILDING AND
YOU ARE REASONABLY SURE HE CAN'T GET OUT OF THE BUILDING, YOU'VE
ENTERED A DIFFERENT SITUATION THAN THE ACTIVE RUNNING BACK AND
FORTH AND SHOOTING EACH OTHER.
ONE OF THEM, I SAW A VIDEO AND
IT IS SO UNCOMFORTABLE TO WATCH THESE VIDEOS, AND THAT IS WHY I
THOUGHT HE HAD MILITARY TRAINING -- HE IS A SNIPERING 10 GUYS IN
THE BEGINNING PRETTY ACCURATELY, NOT HITTING TOO MANY PEOPLE IN
THE CROWD, THAT I SAW HIM DO THIS MANEUVER AND SHOOT A COP --
I DON'T WANT THAT GUY IN THE STREET AT ALL, HE IS A SUPER
DANGER.
BUT ONCE YOU HAVE HIM CONTAINED, DIFFERENT RULES APPLY.
THAT IS WHY THEY BROUGHT IN THE HOSTAGE NEGOTIATORS IN THE
FIRST PLACE.
AND THEY TRIED FOR HOURS, I DON'T WANT YOU TO GET THE
IMPRESSION THEY DIDN'T TRY.
>>BUT THEY ALSO EXCHANGED FIRE WITH HIM DURING THAT TIME, WHILE
HE WAS HOLED UP IN THAT PARKING GARAGE.
THAT IS STILL MY
QUESTION, IT WASN'T LIKE IT WAS A DIFFERENT PHASE, IT WAS THIS
LONG PHASE WHERE THERE WAS NEGOTIATIONS, AND ALSO EXCHANGE
OF GUNFIRE, AND THE POINT OF RETURNING GUNFIRE IS TO TRY TO
INCAPACITATE AND KILL THAT PERSON.
SO WHAT IS THE
DIFFERENCE IF THEY ROLLED IN ANYTHING ELSE TO INCAPACITATE
HIM?
>>MORLEY I UNDERSTAND YOUR ARGUMENT AND I AGREE, I THINK
MORLEY THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
THE REASON WHY I'M UNCOMFORTABLE
GETTING CRITICAL TOWARD THE OFFICIALS FOR USING THAT BOMB IS
BECAUSE DETAILS ARE STILL COMING OUT, WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT
HAPPENED, HOW MUCH OF AN IMMINENT THREAT HE WAS TO THE
COPS AT THAT TIME, AND I WANT THE COPS TO SURVIVE.
SO IF THEY
HAVE TO DO IT AND IT IS THEIR LAST OPTION AND THAT IS WHAT
THEY CLAIM IT WAS, THEN I'M ALL FOR THEM DOING WHAT THEY NEED TO
DO.
WITH THAT SAID, I THINK THAT CENK'S STRONGEST ARGUMENT IS
THAT THESE ROBOTS HAVE NEVER BEEN USED IN THAT CONTEXT
BEFORE, AND IF THEY'VE BEEN USED TO HELP CONVINCE INDIVIDUALS TO
NOT COMMIT SUICIDE, WELL, THEN I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO NOT
TRUST THE ROBOTS WHEN IT IS BEING UTILIZED FOR THAT REASON.
>>AND THINK ABOUT IT THIS WAY, WE HAVE OTHER THINGS WE'VE
ALWAYS HAD.
WE HAVE HAND GRENADES.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE A
HOSTAGE SITUATION -- HOSTAGE IS NOT THE RIGHT WORD, BUT HE IS
HOLED UP IN A PLACE WHERE WE HAVE HIM SURROUNDED.
WE DON'T
THROW HAND GRENADES AND BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT WE DO.
WE DON'T
JUST EXECUTE THE GUY.
ON THE OTHER HAND, BEN, YOUR BEST POINT
IS IF HE'S DUCKING OUT AT SOME POINT OUT OF A WINDOW OR
SOMETHING TO TRY TO SHOOT OUT AND YOU'VE GOT THE ROBOT THERE,
IT'S HARDER TO SHOOT HIM AND YOU ARE IN A SHOOTING SITUATION,
THEN DETONATING THE ROBOT MAKES A LOT MORE SENSE.
BECAUSE HE IS
TRYING TO SHOOT AT PEOPLE, I'VE GOT TO END THAT THREAT, I
WOULD HAVE ENDED IT WITH A BULLET ANYWAY.
>>AND WE DON'T KNOW IF THIS WAS MOMENTS AFTER HE WAS SHOOTING
AND THEY HAD THE ROBOT AND SET IT IN, OR IF NEGOTIATIONS
FELL APART AND THEY SAID WE HAVE TO TAKE THIS GUY OUT.
>>AND THE DEVIL LIES IN THAT DETAIL.
>>THEY CLAIM, AND THIS IS FROM DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE
CHIEF, HE SAYS NEGOTIATIONS BROKE DOWN, WE HAD AN EXCHANGE
OF GUNFIRE WITH THE SUSPECTS, WE SAW NO OTHER OPTION BUT TO USE
THE BOMB ROBOT AND PLACE A DEVICE ON THE EXTENSION FOR IT
TO DETONATE WHERE THE SUSPECT WAS.
BY THE WAY, I ALSO WANT TO
NOTE THAT AUTHORITIES HAVE GO TO HIS HOME AND SEARCHED IT, AND
THEY FOUND THAT HE HAD MATERIALS TO BUILD BOMBS.
INVESTIGATORS FOUND BOMB MAKING MATERIALS, VESTS, RIFLES,
AMMUNITION, AND A PERSONAL JOURNAL OF COMBAT TACTICS.
>>AND HE TALKED ABOUT HOW HE PLANTED AN IED.
AND LAST THING
ON THIS, BOTH SIDES, ON ONE HAND YOU DON'T WANT FOR EXAMPLE A
CLIVEN BUNDY KIND OF STANDOFF, YOU DON'T WANT COPS TO SEND
IN ROBOTS AND BLOW THEM ALL UP.
>>THAT IS THE BURDEN OF BEING THE POLICE, IS THAT YOU HAVE TO,
EVEN IN SCARY LIFE OR DEATH SITUATIONS, TAKE THE HIGHER
GROUND AND PUT YOURSELF MAY BE MORE AT RISK TO FOLLOW PROCEDURE
WHEN THE CRIMINAL DOESN'T, WE CAN'T THROW PROCEDURE OUT THE
WINDOW.
>>THAT IS WHY TOUGH CASES LIKE THIS MAKE BAD LAW, THEY SAY IN
LEGAL CIRCLES.
OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE SEES WHY IT IS A TOUGH
CASE, BUT ONE MORE WRINKLE TO IT, IF HE SAYS I HAVE IEDS AND
THE COPS ARE NOT SURE, DOES HE HAVE A DETONATOR ON HIM?
IT IS
ONE THING IF YOU ARE EXCHANGING BULLETS, BUT IF HE HAS BOMBS
THAT COULD DETONATE, I HAVE TO DETONATE HIM BEFORE HE DETONATES
THEM.
THAT IS WHY NONE OF US HERE ARE JUDGING WHAT THE COPS
DID YET, YOU HAVE TO SEE WHAT THOSE DETAILS ARE, BUT I WOULD
HOPE THAT THEY DIDN'T DETONATE THE BOMB BASED ON, OKAY, WE
COULDN'T DO THE NEGOTIATIONS, WE ARE DONE WITH THIS.
THAT THERE
WAS SOME CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE HE IS SHOOTING OUT A WINDOW OR SAYS
HE WILL BLOW THINGS UP, AND THEY SAID WE'VE GOT TO ACT NOW
OTHERWISE OTHER PEOPLE WILL BE A DANGER.
IF THAT IS THE CASE, IT
IS DIFFERENT THAN THEM SAYING WE RAN OUT OF PATIENCE AND WE
WILL BLOW THE GUY UP.