Madam Secretary,
welcome to The Daily Social Distancing Show.
I'm delighted to be with you. Thanks for asking me.
Of course, anytime.
You're always, always welcome as a guest.
Uh, before we get into the interview,
I know that you have
one of the most impressive brooch collections,
and they all mean something.
So I'm assuming that that "V" on your...
on your lapel stands for something?
Because, uh, I spent the war in England--
uh, World War II--
and my father broadcast for BBC,
I listen to BBC every night.
And they, with kettledrums,
would do the first five notes of Beethoven's Fifth.
(vocalizes Beethoven's Fifth)
Which, in Morse code, is "'V' for victory."
As somebody who grew up and lived through a war,
you know, you-you had to do things
like you had to wear masks as a child.
You-you had government-imposed lockdowns
that you and your family had to adhere to.
Was there a different sentiment than there is now
in terms of listening to the government
and doing what is best for the population at large?
Well, I was a little girl, and I did what I was told,
but I really do think that what was similar--
and I'd love to talk about this a bit--
is, um, that the people had no control
over where the bombs fell.
They only had control over their behavior.
And I think people did do what they were told to do.
We spent the night in, um, the cellar
of the apartment building that we lived in.
-Mm-hmm. -My father, when we moved out of London,
was an air-raid warden.
And, um, you know,
they-they had, um, blackouts and everything.
And I think people did what they, uh, were told to do.
Uh, and their behavior made all the difference.
Do you... Do you think there's a reason
we've seen such a shift
in how people don't trust their governments now?
Because, you know,
the American president, for instance, has said...
Trump has said that he sees this like wartime,
and yet his own administration
gives conflicting instructions on what to do.
The-the White House has coronavirus instructions,
and yet he's tweeting out
that people should go out and open America.
So, you know, how-how do you think
the American public should deal with a situation like this
when the leader doesn't seem to have a concise point of view?
I think that is the whole problem,
because in England, uh, Churchill had a view.
Um, and the government was trusted
from everything that I can tell.
From my reading, also.
I think now there is complete confusion
mainly because the president keeps changing his mind.
And so I think that he is the one
that has contributed
to what is already a difficult situation
by changing what he's been saying
and then saying he hasn't changed it.
And so leadership makes all the difference.
There's no question.
The news that we're-we're all reading through today
is the story of another inspector general
who was fired by the administration.
And, you know, lawmakers are saying
it could have something to do with Saudi Arabia.
Um, others are saying it's because the inspector general
was investigating Mike Pompeo
for using his-his staff to do nonofficial work duties,
like walking his dog or getting his laundry.
You worked as Secretary of State.
Tell me, first of all,
what that position is supposed to be
or what you think is going wrong.
And secondly, why...
If, uh, it is a big deal that the inspector generals
are getting fired at the rate that they are.
What I think is interesting is the inspector generals are
in these departments to make sure
that-that regulations and laws are carried out.
They are inspector generals.
Um, and there are a variety of things that come up,
in terms of, um, about people
and personnel matters and, uh, regulations.
So that is not unusual.
What is unusual is to have them fired,
um, and then trying to figure out over what.
Uh, and from what I've read in the papers,
uh, it does-- i-is peculiar,
in terms of some of the--
Um, I mean, I had security people.
They're not supposed to be doing errands for--
They're there to worry about the security
of the secretary of state.
-Mm-hmm. -And then, um,
I think that firing not only him
but there are, I think, three others in other departments--
the same thing. So people that are supposed
to be the protectors of the rule of law
are the ones that are being asked to leave,
which makes one suspicious over how the administration sees
the rule of law.
It also feels like the Trump administration
has gotten fairly comfortable dismissing people
who are tasked with overseeing them as an administration.
Is that something that Americans should worry about?
Or is that merely just America's system
working the way it's supposed to work
and maybe people are not used to it?
No, I do think that it's something
that people need to worry about if it's, uh, repeated,
you know, in terms of how--
Uh, public s-- People that work in the government--
uh, and-and I believe this
from having worked in it a number of times,
both on the legislative and executive side--
are good, hardworking, loyal American citizens
who want to do their job.
And they do it for different administrations.
And so to have the administration be suspicious
of everybody, um,
and think that they're not, uh, fulfilling their obligations
to the Constitution is, um,
uh, peculiar, to say the least.
No, this is very strange, I think.
Your book has been really interesting,
because you have lived quite the life.
Hell and Other Destinations is the title.
Um, wh-why that title?
I mean, it-it feels like we're in hell,
so are you telling us about other destinations we can go to?
So, I'll-I'll tell you,
I chose the title, uh,
because it has something to do
with, um, the most famous statement I ever made,
was that there's a special place in hell
-for women who don't help each other. -Right.
Um, and that statement was so famous
it ended up on a Starbucks cup.
Um, and I did think that there were other destinations
that women could help each other, uh, to achieve.
Um, I wrote the book before the, um, uh,
corona, uh, crisis,
um, and really, um--
I didn't focus on the fact that it was going to be
so, uh, absolutely clear,
uh, you know, and so valid at the moment.
Because I do think we see, um,
uh, horrible things going on,
a type of hell, when we need to look for other destinations.
So the fact that the title is so germane
is a little bit of a surprise.
Americans are asking the question every day,
when will America be ready for a woman as president?
It seems like, this election, it won't happen,
and people are wondering if it'll ever happen in the future.
It's interesting that you talk
about women supporting other women.
Because I wonder, do you think that women
have a special role to play in supporting each other
when it comes to getting into elected office?
Well, I-I do think that, um,
it's important for women to support each other.
But I would never recommend that a woman vote for a woman
that she disagreed with, in terms of elected office.
-Mm-hmm. -Um, I think that there are some
that I certainly wouldn't vote for.
But I do think that it helps
if there's more than one woman in the room.
What is so interesting now
is that the countries that have managed
to have some kind of control over the virus
are the countries run by women.
That is what's so fascinating.
And, you know, like the prime minister of New Zealand
and then Taiwan,
um, and Finland and Germany
and, um, Denmark and Norway.
And I think there are certain qualities
about how women, um, view their role, in terms of--
By the way, I think women are really good at multitasking,
because that's what we have to do,
which means that we have peripheral vision.
Um, that we do care about how decisions are made,
that we actually-- if you want to put it in these terms--
we don't want to divide our children
so that one group hates the other.
Um, and there are a variety of aspects,
in terms of how women come to power,
which is mostly by trying to be helpful
rather than, kind of, uh, having a lot of ego activity.
So I do think-- But as to the question,
I-- America likes to be first in everything.
We are certainly not the first
in terms of having a woman leader.
Um, and I would hope very much at some point we would.
It-it feels like global diplomacy though
is-is about to take a bit of a knock.
Um, just reading today about the--
you know, the group of countries coming together
to descr-- to discuss the global pandemic right now.
Um, there's clearly a rift
in that there are many countries,
such as Australia, who are saying
they want to get to the heart of the pandemic--
where did the virus come from
and how did it spread so quickly?
Um, people always--
People intimating that they're pointing fingers at China.
China has come out and their representative said
this is not the time to in-- to be investigating
the source of the virus.
And it feels like the world is being set up for a moment
where quite a few countries are gonna be looking to China
for answers about what happened in Wuhan
and how the virus spread around the world.
How would you handle the situation?
Because, on the one hand,
people want to hold a country accountable
if they've done something that has hurt other countries.
On the other hand, it seems like everybody is terrified of China.
So how do you-- how do you balance this out
in dealing with them but also, you know,
dealing with them as a partner?
What you try to do in diplomacy is to solve problems,
uh, not create them.
Uh, and I do think that one of the issues here
is what do we do now.
Uh, because, as I said earlier,
we're all interconnected on this,
um, and the-the virus knows no borders.
-Mm-hmm. -At some point, there has to be an investigation
of what happened. There is no question about that.
But, uh, what we need to do now
is figure out ways that we can work together.
An example that I've used is supposing that the Chinese
were the ones that came up with the vaccine first.
Would we say we don't want it?
Um, and so, uh--
And the last thing we want to do is to have
a so-called cold war with the Chinese.
A diplomat has to be able to do two things
or at least two things simultaneously.
How to find the areas where we can cooperate,
uh, which clearly-- for instance,
climate change is one of them.
We're now dealing with the virus.
Uh, and where we have to compete.
And the kinds of things that the Chinese are doing
in the South China Sea,
claiming territory and, um,
undermining a variety of, uh, laws that we've had
on navigational freedom, that's bad.
And we have to be able to figure out
how to compete on that score
and not get ourselves into a position
where we're going to have a cold war with the Chinese.
But it is a very difficult relationship,
and it's only made worse now by, uh,
kind of have it be part of the poli--
you know, politicizing it
-and having it be part of our elections. -Right.
Thank you for sharing your time with us today.
And, um, I hope I get to see you,
uh, not through a lens the next time we speak.
But I'm really glad to be with you,
because the last time we saw each other
was at the National Democratic Institute,
where we were giving you the Democracy Award,
because humor is an important part of diplomacy
and what you do every night makes a huge difference.
And I'm so glad that we met
and that you invited me to come and be on the show.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Madam Secretary.
-I appreciate you. -Thank you.