EXTENDED PAUSE.
>> LUCKILY FOR US WE’LL BE ABLE
TO POSE THAT QUESTION.
THANK YOU.
I’M JOINED NOW BY DR. ANTHONY
FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISOR TO
PRESIDENT BIDEN AND DIRECTOR OF
THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF
ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES.
LET’S BEGIN THERE WITH WHAT MY
COLLEAGUE WAS TALKING ABOUT, THE
J&J VACCINE.
ON THAT SUBJECT ON SUNDAY YOU
SAID THERE WOULD BE A, QUOTE,
RESUMPTION IN SOME FORM BY
FRIDAY.
DO YOU STILL FEEL THAT WAY AFTER
THE FIRST HOURS OF THIS CDC
MEETING?
>> YES, I BELIEVE THEY’RE GOING
TO MAKE A DECISION TODAY.
EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT,
HOW LONG THE TAKES TO GET THE
FDA TO GET ALL THE I’S DOTTED
AND T’S CROSSED, I’M NOT EXACTLY
SURE.
BUT I THINK YOU’RE GOING TO HEAR
TODAY OF A DECISION WHAT TO DO.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY
OF WHAT HAS GONE ON IN THE
EUROPEAN MEDICAL AGENCY AND WHAT
THE SOUTH AFRICANS HAVE MADE A
DECISION REGARDING THIS
PARTICULAR PRODUCT, YOU DON’T
WANT TO GET AHEAD OF THE
ADVISORY COMMITTEE BUT IT’S
LIKELY IT’LL BE BACK ON TRACK
WITH SOME SORT OF A MODIFICATION
JUST THE WAY YOUR CORRESPONDENT
SAID LIKELY WITH SOME SORT OF A
WARNING OR WHAT HAVE YOU.
BUT I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF --
SHE’S QUITE CORRECT.
THIS IS REALLY A VERY, VERY RARE
EVENT, I MEAN REALLY QUITE RARE.
>> AND SO SPEAKING OF THAT RARITY THE MEETING SHOWED A
RARITY THE MEETING SHOWED A
SLIDE WITH 15 CLAUM BOLYTICTHROM
CASES IN WOMEN, NONE IN MEN.
WHY NOT LIMIT THE J&J SHOT TO
MEN?
>> WELL, THAT’S A WHY NOT THAT
MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A YES FOR ALL
YOU KNOW.
SEE, YOU DON’T WANT TO GET AHEAD
OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
THAT’S THE REASON WHY I’M SAYING
WHAT LIKELY WILL HAPPEN, BUT
THEY HAVE MULTIPLE CHOICES.
YOU KNOW, THEY COULD SAY LET IT
OUT WITH NOTHING ATTACHED TO IT,
WHICH I THINK WOULD BE UNLIKELY.
OR THEY COULD SAY NOT LET IT OUT
AT ALL, WHICH I THINK WOULD BE
EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.
WHAT LIKELY WILL HAPPEN IS THEY
WILL LET IT OUT THERE WITH SOME
SORT OF RESTRICTION.
I DON’T KNOW WHETHER THAT GOING
TO BE A WARNING ON THE LABEL,
WHETHER THAT’S GOING TO BE A
GENDER RESTRICTION OR WHAT IT’S
GOING TO BE.
I DON’T KNOW.
WE LEAVE THAT UP TO THEM.
AND THAT’S WHY YOU BRING UP A
GOOD QUESTION.
WHY NOT?
THEY’RE GOING TO EXAMINE THAT
AND THEY’LL TELL YOU WHY NOT.
AND IF IT IS THEY’LL TELL YOU
WHY IT IS.
>> WE’LL CERTAINLY WAIT FOR THAT
NEWS AS SOON AS WE DO GET IT.
THE CDC, DR. FAUCI, OBVIOUSLY
INVESTIGATING THE DEATH OF AN
OREGON WOMAN IN HER LATE 50s.
SHE RECEIVED THAT J&J VACCINE
AND DEVELOPED A RARE AND SERIOUS
BLOOD CLOT TWO WEEKS LATER.
CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH WHAT THE
CDC IS LOOKING AT HERE PRECISELY
OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS?
>> YEAH.
WHAT THE FIRST THING YOU WANT TO
DETERMINE IS ARE THERE ANY OTHER
CASES THAT MIGHT HAVE GONE
UNNOTICED?
EITHER SERIOUS CASES THAT WERE
NOT REPORTED OR MAYBE CASES OF A
LESSER SUEVERITY, WHICH WOULD
GIVE YOU A BIGGER NUMBER.
THEY WANT TO GET THE FULL SCOPE
OF WHAT HAD GONE ON, AND THAT’S
WHY THEY NEEDED THE TIME TO
LOOK.
THE OTHER THING THEY WANTED TO
MAKE SURE WAS THAT THE
PHYSICIANS WHO MIGHT BE TAKING
CARE OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THIS
ADVERSE EVENT DO THE APPROPRIATE
THING BECAUSE THE INSTINCTUAL
THING YOU WANT TO DO WHEN YOU
GET SOMEONE WITH A CLOTTING
ABNORMALITY IS GIVE THEM AN
ANTI-COAGULANT LIKE HEPARIN.
EXPERIENCE HAS TOLD US HEPARIN
MIGHT ACTUALLY MAKE IT WORSE.
SO THERE’S A TWO FOLD REASON FOR
THE PAUSING.
ONE, TAKE A LOOK AT THE TERRAIN
AND SEE IF YOU’RE MISSING
ANYTHING, AND NUMBER TWO, GET
THE RIGHT TREATMENT PROTOCOL OUT
TO PHYSICIANS WHO MIGHT
ENCOUNTER SOMEONE WITH THIS
ADVERSE EVENT.
>> AND SO IF WE WERE TO TALK
ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT THE WAY
THIS HAS BEEN COMMUNICATED, THE
J&J VACCINE WAS CONSIDERED A
GAME CHANGER IN GETTING PEOPLE
VACCINATED RAPIDLY AND
CONVENIENTLY BECAUSE IT IS A ONE
SHOT AND DONE TYPE OF APPROACH.
BUT AFTER THESE EARLY
COMPLICATIONS AND THESE
PRODUCTION STUMBLES POLITICO
CITES SEVEN SOURCES THAT ARE,
YOU KNOW, REPORTEDLY PRIVATELY
FRUSTRATED, SENIOR HEALTH
OFFICIALS THAT HAVE LARGELY
WRITTEN OFF THE SHOT AND ARE NOW
MORE HOPEFUL THAT J&J WILL STILL
BE OFULOUS AS A BOOSTER DOWN THE
LINE FOR IMMUNIZATION IN OTHER
COUNTRIES PERHAPS AS THE U.S.
RAMPS UP ITS VACCINE DIPLOMACY.
AND I’M CURIOUS TO GET YOUR
THOUGHTS.
IS THAT REPORT ACCURATE?
HAVE OFFICIALS WRITTEN OFF THE
J&J SHOT HERE IN THE UNITED
STATES?
>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.
SO I DON’T KNOW WHAT OFFICIALS
THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT, BUT I’D
SPEAK WITH OFFICIALS THAT ARE
PRETTY HIGH UP IF YOU KNOW WHAT
I MEAN.
ON A DAILY BASIS.
AND NOTHING HAS BEEN WRITTEN OFF
AT ALL.
THAT’S NOT THE CASE AT ALL.
REMEMBER THIS IS A VERY RARE
COMPLICATION, A VERY RARE
ADVERSE EVENT.
I THINK YOU SHOULDN’T PUT ASIDE
THE FACT YOU HAD MENTIONED IN
THE -- YOU KNOW, LEADING UP TO
THE STORY IS WHAT IMPACT IS THIS
GOING TO HAVE AN HESITANCY?
I THINK WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD
REALIZE THAT THE SYSTEM WORKED,
THAT IF WE COULD CALL A PAUSE
FOR AN ADVERSE EVENT THAT’S SO
EXCEEDINGLY RARE, THE FACT IS IF
YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THE OTHER
THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON WITH
THE OTHER VACCINES, FOR EXAMPLE WITH THE MRNA IN WHICH LIKE 130
WITH THE MRNA IN WHICH LIKE 130
DOSES OF PEOPLE HAVE RECEIVED
SINGLE DOSE OR MORE THERE HAVE
BEEN NO RED FLAGS THAT HAVE GONE
UP.
SO THE SYSTEM OF MONITORING IS
EXQUISITELY SENSITIVE.
SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT, YOU
CAN LOOK ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE COIN AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WHEN
THEY SAY IT’S SAFE, IT REALLY
MUST BE SAFE.
BECAUSE THEY HAVE A VERY, VERY
SHARP TRIGGER FINGER OF STOPPING
THINGS WHEN THEY THINK THEY HAVE
TO LOOK AT IT, AND THAT’S
EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID HERE.
THEY LOOKED AT IT.
AND IF YOU HEAR THIS EVENING
THAT THEY SAY THERE’S NOT ENOUGH
CASES AT ALL THEN IT’S GOING TO
BE A VERY, VERY RARE EVENT.
>> ON THE ONE HAND YOU HAVE THE
WHITE HOUSE SAYING THEY HAVE
ENOUGH SUPPLY FOR EVERY ADULT IN
THIS COUNTRY WITH PFIZER AND
MODERNA WHICH IMPLICITLY MEANS
THEY DON’T NEED THE JOHNSON &
JOHNSON VACCINE FOR SUPPLY
PURPOSES.
THEY MAY NEED IT FOR CONVENIENCE
BUT NOT SUPPLY PURPOSES.
AND EVEN THOUGH IT IS A RARE
RISK, WHY EVEN TAKE SOMETHING
THAT HAS A RARE RISK INVOLVED IN
IT?
>> YEAH, BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT
OF PEOPLE.
AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT MORE THAN
WE WOULD HAVE IMAGINED WHO
REALLY LIKE THE IDEA ABOUT A
SINGLE SHOT VACCINE.
IN FACT, THERE WERE SEVERAL
PEOPLE WE INTERVIEWED JUST TO
TRY AND GET A SURVEY WHAT THE
SCENE IS, WHAT THE TERRAIN IS
OUT THERE.
PEOPLE ARE SAYING THEY’RE SORRY
IT WAS PAUSED.
THEY CAN’T WAIT UNTIL IT GETS
BACK BECAUSE THEY’D RATHER HAVE
A SINGLE DOSE VACCINE.
SO THERE WILL BE PLENTY OF
PEOPLE WHO WILL PREFER HAVING A
SINGLE DOSE VACCINE.
THAT’S THE REALLY IMPORTANT
ADVANTAGE OF THAT IN ADDITION TO
THE COLD CHAIN ISSUES AND
OTHERS.
SO IT IS AN EFFECTIVE VACCINE
AND HAS ADVANTAGES DEPENDING
UPON THE SITUATION YOU’RE IN.
>> I HAVE TO PLAY FOR YOU THIS
SOUND BITE FROM REPUBLICAN
SENATOR RON JOHNSON.
YOU MAY HAVE ALREADY HEARD IT.
HE SAID THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD
NOT BE ENCOURAGING YOUNG PEOPLE
TO TAKE THE VACCINE BECAUSE IT
IS ON AN EMERGENCY USE
AUTHORIZATION.
LISTEN TO THIS, SIR.
>> BECAUSE IT’S NOT A FULLY
APPROVED VACCINE I THINK WE
PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE LIMITED THE
DISTRIBUTION TO THE VULNERABLE,
TO PEOPLE THAT REALLY AREN’T --
TO THE VERY YOUNG I SEE NO
REASON TO BE PUSHING VACCINES ON
PEOPLE.
WHAT IS THE POINT?
THE SCIENCE TELLS US VACCINES
ARE 95% EFFECTIVE, SO IF YOU
HAVE A VACCINE QUITE HONESTLY
WHAT DO YOU CARE IF YOUR
NEIGHBOR HAS ONE OR NOT?
YOU GOT A VACCINE AND SCIENCE IS
TELLING YOU IT’S VERY, VERY
EFFECTIVE.
SO WHY THIS BIG PUSH TO MAKE
SURE EVERYBODY GETS THE VACCINE?
>> I COULD BE WRONG HERE BUT IT
WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT A PANDEMIC
IS EXACTLY WHAT AN EMERGENCY USE
AUTHORIZATION IS MEANT FOR.
BUT DR. FAUCI, CORRECT ME IF I’M
WRONG HERE, CAN YOU ANSWER THE
SENATOR’S QUESTION?
WHY THIS PUSH TO GET EVERYONE
VACCINATED?
>> SO I’M NOT UNDERSTANDING,
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, WHAT HE’S
SAYING.
ALL THREE OF THE VACCINES THAT
ARE AVAILABLE ARE ON EMERGENCY
USE.
SO I’M NOT SURE WHAT THE POINT
IS.
THE MODERNA IS ON EMERGENCY USE
AUTHORIZATION.
THE PFIZER IS AN EMERGENCY USE
AUTHORIZATION.
AND THE J&J IS AN EMERGENCY USE
AUTHORIZATION.
>> I THINK HE IS REFERRING TO
ALL THREE.
NOT TO INTERRUPT YOU, BUT I
THINK HE’S REFERRING TO ALL
THREE, THE FACT ALL OF THEM ARE
UNDER THIS EMERGENCY USE
AUTHORIZATION.
WHY IS THE GOVERNMENT PUSHING
FOR EVERYONE TO HAVE IT,
CERTAINLY THOSE THAT ARE 16 --
>> OKAY, WELL, THERE’S A PRETTY
GOOD REASON WE HAVE 567,000
PEOPLE WHO DIED SO FAR IN THIS
COUNTRY FROM THIS DISEASE.
THAT IS A REALLY, REALLY GOOD
REASON TO GET PEOPLE VACCINATED
WITH A VACCINE THAT WAS SHOWN TO
BE HIGHLY EFFICACIOUS AND QUITE
SAFE.
AND THAT’S THE REASON FOR THE
EMERGENCY USE AUTHORIZATION.
WE ARE DEALING WITH AN
EMERGENCY.
HOW CAN ANYONE SAY THAT 567,000
DEAD AMERICANS IS NOT AN
EMERGENCY?
>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT
SOMETHING YOU’VE SAID OVER THE
COURSE OF THIS PAST YEAR.
CERTAINLY ON THE PERCENTAGE OF
THE POPULATION THAT IT WOULD
TAKE TO REACH HERD IMMUNITY.
AND THIS IS HOW "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" CHARACTERIZED IT.
THEY WROTE BACK IN DECEMBER, IN
THE PANDEMIC’S EARLY DAYS DR.
FAUCI TENDED TO CITE THE SAME
60% TO 70% ESTIMATE THAT MOST
EXPERTS DID.
ABOUT A MONTH AGO HE BEGAN
SAYING 70%, 75% IN TELEVISION
INTERVIEWS.
AND LAST WEEK IN AN INTERVIEW
WITH CNBC NEWS HE SAID 75%, 80%,
85%, AND 75% TO 80% PLUS.
"THE TIMES" GOES ONTO WRITE DR.
FAUCI ACKNOWLEDGED HE’D SLOWLY
BUT DELIBERATELY BEEN MOVING THE
GOAL POSTS PARTLY ON SCIENCE AND
HIS GUT FEELING THE COUNTRY IS
READY TO HEAR WHAT HE REALLY
THINKS IT MAY TAKE CLOSE TO 90%
IMMUNITY TO BRING THE VIRUS TO A
HALT.
CAN YOU CLARIFY FOR US?
THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY BACK IN
DECEMBER.
HERE WE ARE AT THE END OF APRIL.
IS 90% STILL THE NUMBER OR IS IT
EVEN HIGHER THAN THAT?
>> NO, NO, NO.
I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOUR POINT OF
BRINGING THAT ARTICLE UP IS.
PEOPLE START BRINGING THAT UP
WHEN THEY GO WHAT DID YOU
ACTUALLY MEAN -- THE ISSUE OF
HERD IMMUNITY IS A VERY ELUSIVE
CONCEPT BECAUSE WE DON’T KNOW
WHAT THAT IS.
I MADE AN ESTIMATE IT WAS
SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 75% AND 80%.
IT COULD BE MORE THAN THAT, AND
HERD IMMUNITY IS NOT JUST THE
IMMUNITY INDUCED BY VACCINE.
IT’S THE IMMUNITY INDUCED BY
VACCINE PLUS THE IMMUNITY THAT’S
INDUCED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE
INFECTED WHO RECOVERED AND WHO
MIGHT BE PROTECTED.
THE CONFUSING ASPECT IS THAT
THAT’S ALL MOVING TARGETS
BECAUSE WE DON’T KNOW, FOR
EXAMPLE, WHAT PEOPLE WHO MIGHT
HAVE GOTTEN INFECTED 9 MONTHS
AGO, WHETHER THEIR IMMUNITY IS
STILL DURABLE UP TO NOW.
SO WHEN WE TAKE A VIRUS LIKE
MEASLES IN WHICH YOU’VE HAD
MULTIPLE DECADES OF EXPERIENCE,
YOU KNOW WHAT THE HERD IMMUNITY
PERCENTAGE IS OF HAVING THE
POPULATION PROTECTED TO GET HERD
IMMUNITY.
AND YOU KNOW THAT BECAUSE WHEN
IT GOES BELOW THAT LEVEL, YOU
SEE SPRINGING UP OF CASES.
WE DON’T HAVE THAT KIND OF
EXPERIENCE.
SO WHENEVER YOU SAY HERD
IMMUNITY WITH REGARD TO
CORONAVIRUS, YOU STILL ARE IN A
AREA WHERE YOU’RE SPECULATING
EXACTLY WHAT THAT’S GOING TO BE.
SO WHAT I WAS SAYING SINCE THEN
AND BEFORE THEN YOU KNOW WHAT WE
NEED TO DO?
WE NEED TO GET AS MANY PEOPLE
VACCINATED AS QUICKLY AS WE
POSSIBLY CAN.
AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS, THEN
YOU’LL START SEEING THE NUMBER
OF CASES DRAMATICALLY GO DOWN.
WHETHER THAT’S GOING TO BE 70%,
85%, NOBODY KNOWS RIGHT NOW.
WE JUST DON’T KNOW WHAT THAT IS
BECAUSE WE DON’T HAVE EXPERIENCE
WITH THIS PARTICULAR VIRUS RIGHT
NOW.
>> FAIR ENOUGH.
I THINK I WAS ASKING BECAUSE A
LOT OF PEOPLE WHO I SPEAK TO ON
A REGULAR BASIS USE THAT TERM AS
A WAY OUT OF THIS.
THEY THINK THE WAY OUT OF THIS
IS GOING TO BE WHEN WE REACH
HERD IMMUNITY AND THAT NUMBER IS
THE NUMBER PEOPLE HAVE THROWN
OUT.
I THINK THAT’S WHY PEOPLE HAVE
HELD ONTO IT.
"THE WASHINGTON POST" IS
REPORTING VACCINATIONS ARE DOWN
SIGNIFICANTLY WITH AN 11%
DECREASE IN THE SEVEN-DAY
AVERAGE OF DAILY SHOTS
ADMINISTERED OVER THIS PAST
WEEK.
HAVE WE PEAKED IN VAXIVATIONCCIN
DO YOU EXPECT THOSE NUMBERS TO
DECLINE GIVEN THE HESITANCY
WE’RE SEEING IN THIS COUNTRY?
>> YOU KNOW, I DON’T THINK
THEY’RE GOING TO DECLINE
NECESSARILY, EAMON, BECAUSE OF
THE HESITANCY.
I THINK WHEN YOU REACH A
SITUATION WHERE THE RATIO
BETWEEN SUPPLY AND DEMAND STARTS
TO NARROW, THAT INSTEAD OF
GETTING THAT BIG PUSH YOU’RE
GOING TO HAVE A STABILIZIZATION.
AND I WOULDN’T BE SURPRISED.
IT WAS BETWEEN 3 AND 4 MILLION
PER DAY.
NOW IT’S HANGING AROUND 3, 2.9
PER DAY.
IF IT STAYS THERE OR COMES DOWN
A BIT MORE, I WOULDN’T BE
SURPRISED.
BUT WE STILL ARE GOING TO
CONTINUE TO VACCINATE A LOT OF
PEOPLE EACH DAY.
GETTING BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID
BEFORE, AS WE GET THOSE 3
MILLION PEOPLE EACH DAY, WE’RE
GOING TO REACH A CRITICAL POINT
WHERE YOU’RE GOING TO START TO
SEE THE INFECTIONS GO DOWN.
IN FACT, THERE’S A REALLY
INTERESTING CHART THAT WE DON’T
HAVE NOW FOR THE VIEWERS THAT
SHOWED ISRAEL WHERE THEIR CASES
WERE GOING UP, THE VACCINE WAS
GOING UP AND UP AND THEN AT A
CRITICAL POINT ALL OF A SUDDEN
THE VACCINE NUMBERS WENT UP AND
THE CASES KEPT ONGOING DOWN.
THAT WAS AT A POINT WHERE WHERE
THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WERE
VACCINATED WERE AROUND 61 OR SO
PERCENT.
YOU ADD THAT TO THE NUMBER OF
PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN INFECTED
AND SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE THEY
REACH THAT CRITICAL POINT.
DO YOU WANT TO CALL THAT HERD
IMMUNITY?
YOU CAN HAVE PEOPLE ARGUING WITH
YOU ABOUT THAT.
THE IMPORTANT THING IS WHATEVER
YOU CALL IT, THE LEVEL OF
INFECTION STARTED TO GO DOWN
DRAMATICALLY.
AND THAT’S WHERE WE WANT TO BE.
INSTEAD OF GETTING HUNG ON ON
WHAT THAT PARTICULAR NUMBER IS,
JUST KEEP VACCINATING PEOPLE AND
THEN IT’LL START COMING DOWN.
>> FAIR POINT.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, BEFORE WE
LEAVE I WANTED TO SHARE WITH YOU
THIS PICTURE.
IT IS OF A LAWN SIGN THAT HAS A
PICTURE OF YOU WITH THE WORDS,
LET’S LISTEN TO DR. FAUCI