-How are you? -I am well, thank you.
-Welcome back to the show. -Thank you.
And congratulations on your new book Thick.
The title of the book is Thick.
And what's interesting is that, for you,
it's not just a physical term, about your personality--
-It's a term about personality, it's a term about body, -Mm-hmm.
it's a term about all of the ideas that go into
what society perceives a black woman
-to be or what she should be. -Right.
Give me an understanding of what you're trying to accomplish
-with this book. -That's a great question.
I think, uh, Thick was about it.
Thick was the last essay I wrote in this book,
and when we titled it, it all sort of came together for me.
And it was this: There's this theme running
through the history of black women's experience
of this country and of the world
that is about us being nuanced, and sometimes too nuanced
for the world to perceive us as we perceive ourselves.
And it was in that nuance
where I wanted people to get comfortable.
We're not usually very comfortable in places
where we don't have easy black-and-white answers.
And this book is about complicating all of that,
but in in a way that centers the experiences of black women
as being human experiences, which is what I thought,
if there's any contribution of this book, it is that.
It's interesting that you say that,
because for many black women in America,
they have always said that the definition
of being a black woman in America is one
-that seems to be defined by others. -That is correct.
-So they go, "you're the angry black woman. -That's right.
You're the sassy black woman.
-Oh, you're smart for a black woman.” -Ah.
It seems like there's always some sort
-of qualifier that comes with that. -That's right.
-You're trying to dissect those ideas. -Mm-hmm.
The book is really, really in-depth,
but at the same time, easy to understand.
Why did you break it into essays,
as opposed to just writing one long book?
Well, I don't know that one long book
would be enough for the story of black women.
Oddly enough, essays are a better approach
because you can take these slices of our life.
And you run the risk of people thinking
that this is a definitive book
on what it is to be a black woman.
I mean, so one of the things that happens when you're
a black woman and you have some public personalities,
you become everybody's black friend
-who doesn't have an actual black friend. -Right.
And I didn't want to give the impression
that by reading one definitive text about black women
-you knew everything there was to know about black women. -Yes.
What this does instead is give you a slice of life,
and the thinking and the philosophy
of black womanhood as I understand it.
Not just as someone who lives it and has experienced it,
but someone who has studied it
and thought about it at these different levels.
So essays allow me to sort of slice those sections
of our life experiences off in a way
that I think a single narrative wouldn't allow me to do.
You talk in the book about how, you know,
publications, for instance, don't hire enough black women
-as voices to constantly contribute. -Right. Mm-hmm.
-Right. -You know, they-they just want to jump in
-and be like, "Hey, there's a black issue." -That's right.
"Black lady, can you just jump in and write this for us?
-But we're not gonna hire you permanently." -Yes.
Why do you think that's so important
in the conversations that America has
in and around its politics or social issues?
You know, it's important on a couple of levels.
It's important to black women because we deserve it, right?
(chuckles): If you have earned the spot
to contribute to the public discourse,
then you should be at publications
that help shape that kind of discourse.
-Right. -And our opinion pages, those mastheads,
as much as we like to think that they no longer matter,
indeed, in the age of social media,
they may matter more and not less,
because we tend to turn
to the publications that we trust more
when news becomes more difficult to trust, right?
And if those are gonna be the publications that we trust,
it should look like the people whose trust we are asking for.
So that's one reason.
The other reason is I believe that the philosophy
that black women have developed over hundreds of years
says as much about black womanhood
as it says about everyone else's experiences.
And, frankly, I just think we're smarter
if we listen to black women.
That is not to say that black women are always right,
but black women do always have a right to be heard, right?
-Right. -And when you don't model what it means
to take black women seriously in our public discourse,
it reinforces the idea
that people don't have to take us seriously.
If you... if you look at the ideas,
and if you look at America's relationship
with the black woman, what would hope would change?
I mean, you write so many ideas in the book,
but what would you hope you would see change in the country?
I would hope that we are at a moment
where it can be taken for granted
that if you are having a conversation about anything
that has implications for the body politic writ large,
that you would look around the table of that conversation
and know that there are voices missing
without someone having to tell you.
-Wow. -We should not at this stage of the game
have to write you a letter, send you a tweet.
-Right, right. -Right? Write an essay
about David Brooks and how offtrack he is.
We shouldn't have to do these things anymore.
That even if you don't quite understand the extent
to which our contribution is important,
that you should be able to look around a room and go,
"Something is missing here,"
-right, without a black woman having to tell you. -Right.
I-I loved how in the book
you talked about small and meaningful protests
that you try and implement in your life.
For instance, you talk about how you're done code-switching.
-Correct. -You say what you love is you go,
"I'm not just going to be black.
I'm going to try and be the blackiest black that I can be."
-(laughs) That's a way to say it, yes. -Right.
And-and that's a really interesting idea.
Why do you think it's so important to do that?
Do you think... do you think code-switching
reinforces the stereotypes that people have about black people,
so they go, "Oh, you sound more white,
ergo, you know, whiteness is associated with smartness"?
-Right, right. -And then you go like, "No,
"I'm going to be as black as you think a black person can be
while still maintaining that level of intelligence."
-Is that part of it? -Yeah.
It's like, code-switching is a marvelous cultural tradition,
and I love it. I love that I'm able to do it.
-Right. -I also love that I'm able to choose not to do it.
What I am doing when I do it is that I am acknowledging the fact
that I have achieved certain status symbols
that we tend to associate with people who don't look like me.
-Right. -And I want to make people uncomfortable
with the fact that they are uncomfortable with me.
Reconcile the fact that if you think I am anything worthwhile--
intelligent or attractive or important--
I want them to reconcile that
with the fact that I sound like I sound,
-I look like what I look like, and I am what I am. -Right.
(cheering and applause)
It's...
it's such a powerful idea.
There are so many essays that tackle so many subjects.
I mean, everything from you talking
about how Serena Williams had to basically, you know,
commandeer her own treatment in a hospital
because people didn't know how to treat her.
You talk about the mortality rates
-of black women giving birth in America. -Yeah.
You talk about your own stories
where you went into your favorite bookstore
and they took your purse because they were afraid
-that you were gonna steal books. -Right.
-Right. -Which I always think is a great thing
-to let people steal, anyway. -I... Right.
-I'm like, "Steal the books, whatever." -My favorite part
of that is they were used books.
-Like, give those away. They're used, man. -Right.
Do you ever have the urge to go back to that bookstore
and be like, "Oh, no, I'm here to sign my own now. Uh..."
-(cheering and applause) -(laughs) You know,
we, um, we have a word for that,
and that's called being petty. And yes, yes, I have.
(laughter)
Oh, man. Thank you so much
-for being on the show. -Thank you for having me.
It's always an honor to have you here.
Thick is an amazing book by an amazing woman.
Tressie McMillan Cottom, everybody.