amna: Several recent antisemitic
comments from public figures,
from former president Donald
Trump to recording artist ye,
formally know as Kanye west,
have sparked concern once again
about the rise of antisemitic
rhetoric, and the real world
consequences.
John yang has a conversation
with the latest.
John: Amna, over the weekend,
former president trump posted
some disturbing comments to his
social media app, truth social,
that include this --
"No president has done more for
Israel that I have.
U.S. Jews have to get their act
together and appreciate what
they have in Israel
before it is too late."
White house press secretary
Karine jean-pierre denounced the
post as anti semitic.
It played on the old trope that
American Jews have a duel
loyalty to Israel.
Many also saw that last phrase
-- before it is too late -- as a
threat.
The post came just days after he
musical artist ye was suspended
from Twitter and Instagram after
saying jewish people are trying
to black ball him and tweeting
that he would go death con 3 on
jewish people.
Dov Waxman is director of the
y&s Nazarian center for Israel
studies and a professor of
political science at university
of California, Los Angeles.
His most recent book is "The
Israeli-Palestinian conflict:
What everyone needs to know."
Thank you for joining us.
Are you concerned that comments
like these from people like
these, a former president, a
megastar recording star, can
spread anti-semitic sentiment
more widely?
Dov: Absolutely.
I think the real danger is that
both president trump's remarks
and Kanye west's have the danger
of normalizing anti-semitism,
legitimizing it.
These are people who have a huge
number of followers,
particularly on social media.
And when they're coming out and
saying this, it kind of gives
license to many other people to
also express anti semitic
statements.
And it really signals a wider I
think mainstreaming of
anti-semitism in our political
discourse today, and that's
really a worrying development.
John: You know, in the past when
former president trump has been
accused of using anti-semitic
rhetoric, he's defended himself
by pointing to his daughter's
family who's jewish, and for his
support for Israel.
What's your response to that?
Dov: I think both of those
things are really irrelevant to
the question of whether he is or
isn't an anti-semite.
As a side point, I didn't think
he is actually anti-semitic.
But he certainly traffics in
anti-semitic stereotypes, he
repeats anti-semitic ideas, he
made himself not personally hate
Jews.
But I think we should also bear
in mind that supporting Israel
or having jewish family members,
doesn't mean that one can't be
anti-semitic.
There are anti-semites who have
supported and who still support
Israel and absent minded people
who may have Jews in the family.
So neither of those things, I
think, disprove the claim that
trump is himself an anti semite,
but I think the more important
issue is not what he feels or
the feelings he has towards
Jews, but rather, the way in
which he repeats anti semitic
stereotypes and encourages anti
semitism in among his followers
and signaling to many of his
supporters that those kinds of
ideas are acceptable.
John: So much of this current
discussion is about former
president trump and conservative
voices, but of course,
democratic representative ilhan
Omar has been criticized in the
past for her comments, saying
that congressional support for
Israel is based on money, not
principle.
Is this a problem or do you see
a problem on the democratic side
as well?
Dov: I think anti-semitism is a
concern on all sides of the
political spectrum.
Anti-semitic ideas, stereotypes,
ways of thinking can come up
across the political spectrum or
left, right or center.
But I think we have to be clear
that the real the great danger
of anti semitism in the united
States today and the most deadly
forms of anti semitism are
coming quite clearly from the
right.
So while statements about the
power of the pro-Israel lobby or
allusions to its control over
congress can certainly draw upon
old anti-semitic ideas, I don't
think we should equate that with
the kind of mainstreaming of
anti-semitic conspiracy theories
that is happening today within
the Republican party in the form
of the kind of replacement
theory or the demonization of
George Soros, which happens on
an almost daily basis.
John: There are times when when
criticisms and debate over
Israeli policies, particularly
Israeli treatment of the
Palestinian people, can trigger
accusations or denunciations of
anti-semitism.
What's the line there?
Where's the line?
Dov: Well, that's the million
dollar question.
And everybody I think draws the
line in a different place.
I mean, people recognize that
not all criticism of Israel is
anti-semitic.
I think that principle is widely
recognized.
But where exactly criticism of
Israel crosses the line into
anti-semitism is much debated.
In my view, criticism of Islam
-- of Israel becomes
anti-semitic when it draws upon
anti-semitic stereotypes --
anti-semitic ideas or tropes or
representations of Jews.
In other words, when Israel is
kind of depicted in the same
ways that Jews once depicted in
anti-semitic literature and
discourse.
Or when Israel is accused of
kind of secretly engaging in
conspiracies, where Israel is
blamed for all sorts of world
events, be at the 9/11 terrorist
attack or the invasion of Iraq
or, or even the covid 19
pandemic, when you have that
kind of conspiracy theory about
zionism and about Israel that is
also classically anti semitic.
John: I want to ask you about a
tweet that my colleague Morgan
till spotted this morning.
It's from Elon Musk had since
been taken down.
It shows Donald Trump, Elon Musk
and Kanye west as the three
musketeers.
Kanye west with Parler, trump
with true social and of course
Elon Musk is says he's intent on
buying Twitter.
The caption says "In retrospect
it was inevitable."
Does this convergence on social
media give you concern?
Dov: Yeah, I think really what
we're seeing is the way as anti
semitism really being trafficked
on social media.
It's not altogether clear that
anti semitism is growing in
terms of attitudes among the
American public.
What is happening, though, is
that anti semitism is being
expressed continually on
constant basis on social media.
And it's very often being
amplified through the algorithms
that social media uses.
And so I think the real danger
is in the ways in which social
media now is spreading anti
semitic ideas.
John: Are those ideas becoming
more socially acceptable to say
out loud, to express?
Dov: Yeah, I think that's the
change.
It's not necessarily that more
people are subscribing to anti
semitic ideas, but that the kind
of taboo that may have existed
to some extent in the past
against expressing anti semitic
ideas, that taboo is really
ending.
I think, you know, Kanye west's
comments and trump's comments,
and many other celebrities
comments about Jews have that
effect of eroding this taboo
against the expression of anti
semitism and making anti
semitism increasingly acceptable
in mainstream public discourse.
And that is a very alarming
development because accepting
anti semitism in speech and
language can also ultimately
lead to anti semitic acts and
anti semitic violence.
John: Thank you very much.
Dov: Thank you.