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How you show up matters.
Having a powerful presence can make or
break your transactions, your relationships, and your career.
Hello, I'm Matt Abrahams, and
I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast.
Today I'm really excited to be joined by Jeff Pfeffer,
who is a professor of Organizational Behavior at Stanford's GSB.
Jeff's research focuses on the effects of work environments on health and
well-being, as well as power and leadership in organizations.
He teaches the super popular course The Paths to Power, and
he is the author of many books, including Dying For
A Paycheck, and Power, Why Some People Have It and Others Don't.
Welcome, Jeff, thanks for being here.
>> Well, Matt, thank you for having me on your show.
>> Great, I'm super excited to get started.
So my first question is how do you define power and status, and
why do you think your class that covers these topics is so popular?
>> I define power as the ability to get things done against opposition.
And oftentimes, of course, as we try to make things happen,
we find that not everybody agrees with us.
>> [LAUGH] >> And I think the class is popular
because I have this very bad habit of teaching people and
actually telling the truth.
And so therefore, I think my students, both online and offline,
and everybody I talk to, actually appreciates knowing how to get things done
in a world in which oftentimes that's difficult.
And they like hearing the truth.
As I like to say, Jack Nicholson was actually wrong,
people do want to hear the truth.
>> That's one of my favorite movies, for sure, and
I chuckled when you said often those in power can't get things done.
As the father of two teenagers that is certainly true.
>> It's true in companies as well.
>> Yes, yes, yes.
For my next few questions, I want to get very tactical and specific,
if you don't mind.
So are there specific nonverbal behaviors or body language, if you will,
that we can employ to be seen as more powerful and having higher status?
Are there things we should avoid doing as well?
>> Absolutely, and in fact, I'm sure this is what you teach in your class.
We give away our power by tilting our heads,
we give away our power by looking down.
We give away our power particularly when we hunch over and
we constrict our body in on itself.
If you want to see an example of this,
watch Tony Hayward testifying in the BP hearings, where he looks,
there's no gestures and he's really hunched in and reading a script.
And so reading a statement, and so all of those things I think give away power.
And on the contrary, you have power to the extent that you look people in the eye.
You have power to the extent that you stand up to your full height,
whatever that is.
You have power to the extent that you take an expansive posture.
You spread out, you take up more space, and
you certainly have power to the extent that you use forceful gestures.
And anybody who's ever watched somebody speak, or watch the movie
understands what a forceful gesture is as opposed to a one that isn't.
>> Excellent, so you're right, in the classes I teach,
we talk about being big, balanced, and still to demonstrate presence.
And it sounds like you're echoing that advice.
>> Absolutely.
>> Let's switch from nonverbal to verbal.
Are there specific verbal behaviors we can employ to be seen as more powerful or
having higher status?
And are there things that we should avoid saying?
[LAUGH] >> So
one of the ways in which you convey power is by being loud.
One of the ways in which you convey power is by being modestly or
moderately impolite and interrupting other people.
And by contrast, one way in which you don't give away your power,
if you refuse yourself be interrupted.
So that's one set of things.
And then there's powerful language.
You want to use simple language, forceful language,
vivid language, vivid words, and keep it simple and direct.
>> Very, very direct and simple in your answer, thank you.
I'm curious your thoughts, because I deal a lot with this in the work that I do,
around filler words and words of hesitation, like kind of and sort of.
Do you have insights on that and how that affects how people perceive us?
>> You don't want to use filler words and you don't want to use to the extent
possible um's or ah's or anything else like that.
You want to speak as if, even though it's not rehearsed, it's been
completely rehearsed and you want to not have any filler words whatsoever.
>> Okay, so fluency is important for sure.
>> Absolutely.
>> Let's move away from verbal and nonverbal behavior, and
I'm curious if you have any thoughts on how emotion relates to power and status.
Are there certain emotions we may want to display while avoiding others?
>> Absolutely, but in general I think we want to see people come across strong.
Anger is a much stronger emotion than sadness or
than any kind of remorse or hesitation or whatever.
So anger's a very strong emotion, and
I have found in dealing with the various people that I deal with.
And particularly the institutions that I deal with,
many of which have done a very good job of not providing good customer service-
>> [LAUGH]
>> And your audience can figure out who
they are, that oftentimes displaying anger gets much more results than begging or
cajoling or pleading.
Or throwing yourself on the mercy of
whoever the particular organizations happens to be.
Then you should use strong emotions, and anger and forcefulness is much
stronger than pleading, or apology, or something like that.
>> So there are certain situations for sure where anger is appropriate,
there are others where it is not.
Is something just like being very passionate and convicted in your belief,
or what you're saying, does that help as well?
>> Absolutely, there's no question that to the extent that you are excited,
I mean, we know that emotions are contagious.
You walk down an airline corridor to the extent that anybody walks down an airline
corridor anymore.
>> [LAUGH] >> Smile at people, they smile back,
if you frown, they'll frown, so we know that there have been studies.
Emotions are contagious, and that means energy is contagious,
passion is contagious, conviction is contagious.
So yes, you want to be passionate, you want to be energetic,
you want to have conviction about what you're talking about.
Confidence is contagious, you want to display confidence both in the words and
in body language and in the language that you use.
You don't want to say I think there may be some chance
that our new venture might succeed.
>> [LAUGH] >> You want to say we are going to succeed
and there's no question about it.
>> [LAUGH] Great example, I can't tell you the number of entrepreneurs I work with
who have such hedging language in what they say.
Yet they are completely involved and engaged in what they're saying and
passionate about it.
It strikes me, Jeff, that what you just talked about in terms of strong emotions,
that actually leads to some of the things you discussed with nonverbal and
verbal behavior.
When we are passionate about something or angry about something, we gesture broadly,
we're more expressive in our voice, the language choice we use.
So the emotion can actually drive some of that nonverbal and
verbal behavior you mentioned.
>> No, that's exactly correct.
I mean, to the extent that you're passionate and convicted and confident,
you're more likely to speak in a louder voice.
>> Right, right, right, so you were very kind to give me a sneak peek at your
upcoming book, and I'm very excited for that to come out.
In it, you talk about how our faces convey a lot of useful information
regarding our power and status.
Given that we are spending a lot of time communicating virtually
where only our faces show up.
What advice would you give to people who want to be perceived as competent in
higher status, when all we see is a video representation of our faces?
>> Well I think, in the picture I'm looking at of you now I think is
a fabulous example of- >> Why, thank you.
>> So you practice what you teach.
I think people, even prior to the pandemic, but
certainly since the pandemic have gotten way too sloppy
about how they dress and how they show up, and
I mean maybe Mark Zuckerberg can get away with a hoodie.
I think for most people you can't.
I think you should dress and
show up as how you want people to perceive you.
>> So first and foremost, the folks behind my style,
if I have any, will be very pleased.
My wife and my two kids are going to be very thankful,
because I could not do anything, so thank you for noticing that.
And then second, it really sounds just like we need to be thinking about what
we say in our messages and how we structure them for presence and power.
We also need to think about how we show up, and some of the literature
that I'm familiar with suggests that how you frame yourself matters.
You should take up half the screen and not sitting too far away.
We read a lot on people's faces, and if I can't see your face because you're too far
away or you're sitting in the dark, that actually makes you look more suspicious,
less powerful.
So it's not only how you dress and how you look, as you mentioned,
it's also how you frame yourself also matters.
Let me ask you this question.
What would you suggest that someone do who is in a lower status or
power position, who wants to make sure someone in a higher status or
power position, pays attention to their communication?
For example, a line employee talking to his or her boss, or
even me talking to our deans?
>> I think you need to think hard about what you're going to say,
and you want to make it concise,
and you want to lead with the most powerful part of your message.
And the part of the message you want them to pay the most attention to,
because people have always had short attention spans.
And the attention spans have gone down,
I think you want to do pretty much what we've been talking about.
You want to speak directly, you want to communicate directly, you want to show up,
if you're communicating with them in person.
In a way that shows that you're someone to be taken seriously,
and in how you dress and how you hold yourself.
And how you convey yourself through both your body language and
your spoken language.
So I think you would do all the things that we've talked about regardless of who
you're talking to, if you want your message to be heard.
>> Excellent advice, I often add in these situations to somehow
link what you're saying to something of value to them can be helpful.
Not only to demonstrate that you understand what's important for them, but
that you've taken the time to make your message relevant and tailored it as well.
>> Yes, well, if you want to tailor your message, I mean, you should always as we
understand, you should begin, of course, by flattering them, and
the research suggests that there is no amount of flattery that is too much.
So you want to tell them how much you admire what they've done and
how much you respect their abilities and all this other stuff.
If you want them to take you seriously, you want to show them how much you admire
them and how much you respect them, and how happy you are to be in their presence.
>> Well, Jeff, that is probably the best answer I've ever had on this podcast,
and I so admire you taking the time to actually address that answer to us.
I'm curious if you have, upon reflecting on your research and
your experience, any last bits of advice around how to have
a powerful high status presence that you'd like to share?
>> Well, I think when I have Bill English and Susi Damilano,
who are co-founders of the San Francisco Playhouse, come and
teach my session on acting with power.
They give the students I think fabulous advice,
which I will pass on on their behalf to your listeners, and that is to warm up.
So they talk about getting your voice warmed up, getting your body warmed up,
obviously not in public, maybe shaking yourself out, or
shaking your body or going [SOUND] to warm up your voice.
So that when you are, I mean, you can see actors and
actresses do this before they go on stage or before they go to get filmed,
but you should warm up in advance of everything you do.
And one of the things you should do as part of the warm-up process is calm
yourself down.
So that you don't show up in a nervous fashion,
and you show up basically ready to go.
I mean, if I said to you, Matt, you're going to go play football,
particularly given our ages, but even before you went on the football field,
you would probably do some stretches and some exercises to warm up.
And the same advice holds for speech and communication, you want to warm up.
So that when you enter the moment,
you are as relaxed and as ready to go as you can be.
>> If I were playing football, Jeff, I would sign my will and
power of attorney and then I would warm up.
But, [LAUGH] you're exactly right in terms of taking time to warm up.
So many people are so focused on what they're saying they don't take time to
actually prepare their bodies, their minds, their voice for actually saying it.
And we often are so busy in rushing around that we don't give ourselves even time to
prepare the content as best we could.
So that's wonderful advice to really build into the process a time to warm up.
And the great thing about being virtual is nobody needs to see it until you turn your
camera on and unmute your mic, you can do some of that warming up.
So there are actually some advantages I think to being virtual.
Now, before we end, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask
everyone who joins me, are you up for that?
>> I'm up for that.
>> Okay, [LAUGH] he says hesitantly.
>> I'm not sure I have a choice but sure, of course.
>> [LAUGH] Yes, I have the power in this situation.
If you were to capture the best communication advice you have
ever received as a five-to-seven word presentation slide title,
what would it be?
>> Warm up, don't be nervous.
>> I like it, very, very concise, and I think with the exception of one word,
they all were one-syllable words, warm up, don't be nervous.
And we have spent time on this podcast definitely talking about anxiety
management.
So those who are still nervous speaking,
I encourage you to listen in on those episodes.
Number two, Jeff, who is a communicator that you admire, and why?
>> I'm going to back up and ask you to define admire.
>> [LAUGH] So
most people take this question to mean somebody that they respect.
Somebody that they feel demonstrates communication skills that
are worthy of others to consider and use, does that help?
>> Yeah, that helps, I'm going to give you two answers.
>> Okay.
>> I think Barack Obama is a fabulous communicator, but
I also think Donald Trump is an extremely effective communicator.
And I think people can learn a lot by watching what he does and
how he manages an audience, and how he responds and
feeds off the audience, and how he plays into the audience.
And how what you say doesn't matter as much as how you say it, and
there's a lot of research that suggests that.
>> Yeah, absolutely, and a lot of people have looked at his speaking style and
identified things that we can all learn from.
So number three, the final question, what are the first three
ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
>> A successful communication, I didn't hear the last word.
>> Recipe, imagine you're a cook in a kitchen putting together a successful
communication dish, what are the first three ingredients?
>> Simplicity, simplicity for sure,
forcefulness, and third ingredient,
simplicity, forcefulness, and volume.
>> Interesting, tell me a little bit more about forcefulness.
I think we get simplicity and I think volume makes sense,
but what do you mean by forcefulness?
>> Forcefulness means speaking with conviction.
>> Okay. >> Which means not only your voice and
not only the loudness of your voice, but acting as if you mean what you say.
And there's this old saying, which I think has been taken very badly out of context.
And which I think has been misused in some sense, which is fake it till you make it.
I think the real saying is fake it until you become it.
If you say something often enough and with enough conviction over time, you may not
convince any other human beings but you will certainly convince yourself.
And for you to be able to convince anybody else of something,
you have to believe what's coming out of your mouth.
>> That's a great way of explaining forcefulness, thank you.
And thank you, Jeff, for taking time to be with us today.
All of us are truly appreciative of the detailed specific advice and
guidance that you have provided.
And I expect that all of us will be sitting up a little straighter,
talking a little louder.
Being a little forceful, so
that we too can have a strong presence that's powerful and high in status.
Thanks so much, Jeff.
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>> Pleasure being with you.
>> Thank you for listening to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast,
a production of Stanford Graduate School of Business.
To learn more go to gsb.stanford.edu.
Please download other episodes wherever you find your podcasts.
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