amna: From culture clashes in
Florida between the Republican
party and Disney, to revelations
in Washington about actions of
lawmakers around January 6, it
has been a busy week in politics
across the country.
To navigate all this, we turn to
the analysis of brooks and
Capehart.
That's New York Times columnist
David brooks and Jonathan
Capehart, columnist for the
Washington post.
Welcome to you both.
I want to pick up where the
Michigan state senator left off,
and Jonathan, first question to
you.
I wanted to get your reaction to
the accusations she faced in the
way she responded, because is
not seven we see often.
Jonathan: I'm going to ignore
the accusation because it is a
lie and it is a lie that far
right Republicans have hurling
at Democrats to Calvin -- two
cothem.
What I loved about the response
was how forceful it was, that
she refused to cede moral ground
to people seeking to attack her.
I'm glad you played that clip of
her saying I am a straight,
white, Russian, married suburban
And I loved what she said when
she said we have to take our
identities back.
For far too long, people on the
left, elected Democrats, like I
said before, have cowed in the
face of these attacks instead of
standing up with their spines
and on their own two feet and in
their values and morals and
saying do not speak for me, do
not -- I am a Christian, don't
tell me I am not, I am a mom,
don't tell me I am not, don't
tell me I don't care about my
children or other children.
I want more like her out there.
She is not the only one.
Last week, a Michigan state
representative went at a
colleague who proposed anti-lgbt
legislation and said to him
directly, it is because of
people like you that friends of
mine decided to leave the state
because they no longer feel
safe.
If we had more people like that
who are willing to be the voice
of lgbtq people,
African-Americans, Asian
Americans, anyone who is not the
straight, white, cisgender,
usually male person attacking
them, we could move this country
out of this horrible
conversation we are having now.
Amna: We talk about this under
this broad umbrella, we call it
culture wars, and it captures a
lot of different issues,
including the ones Jonathan just
talked about and the state
senator talked about.
David, she is not wrong, a lot
of those ideas are qanon,
dangerous conspiracy related, we
used to call it friendship -- is
it still French?
-- Fringe?
David: I would not say it is
fringe anymore.
There are the crazies, pizza
gate and grooming in that stuff,
we cannot say it is fringe but I
can say it is lunatic.
It is not only lunatic, it is
cruel.
I found her very compelling as
she was responding.
Then there is the culture -- am
not going to call it a cultural
difference.
If you look at the world values
survey that surveys world values
, people in english-speaking
countries, our values are
shifting and the rest of the
world's values are very
different.
The same thing is happening in
this country.
Urban educated, shifting, and a
lot of the country is not
shifting.
We are seeing widening chasms on
a whole range of issues.
Went to teach sexuality to
schoolkids.
Somehow we have to have that
fight without it being dominated
by the crazies, and frankly
without it being dominated by
the gotcha screaming moments
we've seen at school boards.
We need to have a discussion
about this stuff.
Right now it is being submerged
because it's hyper politicized.
When you turn difficult issues
into partisan politics, you have
destroyed it.
Amna: When this is unfolding in
a political arena and even to
the national level, you have
members of congress who say
similar things and it is not
immediately rebuked by
leadership, doesn't that
perpetuate it?
David: They won't rebuke it
because it is popular.
Donald Trump was not a policy
president.
Even a culture war president.
It was continual soap operas
where he would identify and
identity issue and he would "Own
the libs."
It's about our identity has to
trump their identity.
It is not about tax issues.
We are in a doom spiral of
values fought as political soap
opera.
Amna: There is ongoing
dehumanizing of political
opponents, and experts say can
lead to more violence.
That is part of the ark met
behind the examination of
Marjorie Taylor Greene's role,
whether what she said led to the
violence on January 6.
You are watching I saw you
tweeting as you watched her in
the courtroom today.
Clearly it's not going to have
an impact, experts don't think
she will be taken off the
ballot.
What was that about and what did
you learn?
David: One, I'm glad someone is
trying to hold her accountable.
Jonathan: If Kevin Mccarthy
isn't going to do it, hold her
accountable the way he held Liz
Cheney accountable, someone
needs to.
I found her demeanor on the
stand to be insulting, as if she
knew she was going to get away
with saying I don't recall, even
after being shown video of her
saying the words she said she
could not recall.
She might not be taken off the
ballot, but again, at least
someone is trying to hold her
accountable.
No one in elected leadership
seems to care.
Amna: Will accountability
happen?
David: No, I've never
interviewed her but I know
people who know her and they say
she knows what she's doing.
She's a sophisticated soap opera
player, playing the game of
getting on TV, which generates
money for her.
This is not legislative politics
the way it used to be practiced
where you run for office to do
something, this is you run for
office to manipulate attention
and she is a master at it.
Jonathan: Manipulate attention,
and I completely get that, but
at some point, someone will have
to recognize that the rhetoric
with Marjorie Taylor Greene and
Theis and these other
Republicans using lgbtq kids and
African-Americans as props in
their play, they have
consequences.
We are talking when Mcmorrow and
Mackey speak and others speak
against the stuff, they are
fighting for the dignity of real
people.
It's not just a moral play or
political theater, people's
lives are at stake.
People's lives are being played
with by people who don't have
those worries, who aren't
marginalized and don't have to
worry about their safety simply
because of the way they look or
the way they identify.
That is the problem I have with
what is happening right now, and
to know that Marjorie Taylor
Greene actually is a
sophisticated and knows exactly
what she is doing makes it even
more insulting.
She is playing with all of our
lives.
Amna: We have seen leader
Mccarthy face a number of
questions about why he hasn't
done more.
In the past she attended a white
nationalists conference.
We don't really see
consequences.
I want to ask you about the
audiotape.
She was on the stand and that
was being laid out across the
networks.
What did you make of that?
David: You can predict Kevin
Mccarthy's position based on
where the wind is blowing that
half-hour.
There was a long period where he
was pro-trump and there was a
little window where trump
seemed, maybe things were
shifting and Kevin Mccarthy
zoomed over, then the winds
shifted back and Kevin Mccarthy
shifted back.
You see the corrosive effect of
trumpism, only the curtain --
current moment matters, and
second, the corrosive effect of
so many Republicans in congress
saying one thing in public and
believing another in private.
When you do that long enough,
you erode any sense of conscious
of who you are and you wind up
with Kevin Mccarthy.
Amna: I need to ask you about
president Biden, there was a lot
of attention this week.
We have hashed over the numbers,
the diffs and approval ratings,
and this week in particular, we
saw it come to ahead the
conflicting crises in a lot of
ways they are facing.
Pandemic weariness, trying to
maintain authority for the CDC,
they want to keep pressure from
winning Ukraine but they have to
keep gas prices down.
When you look at that, are they
doing everything they can?
Jonathan: I think they are doing
everything they can.
They could do a little more in
one area or another.
The problem for the president is
the message can't break through.
Perry bacon has a great column
in the Washington post, we are
at this point that no matter who
the president is, half the
country will hate him or her.
The other thing is the right
wing echo chamber is so strong
that no matter what the
president does, they will not
report on it, or they will spin
it in a way that makes him look
as horrible as possible.
I think what the white house has
been doing, and I am the nerd
who pays attention to the white
house press releases that says
who is going where --
amna: That's why we love you.
Jonathan: The president and vice
president have been getting out
more, but unbeknownst to most
people, the first lady and
second gentleman have been
traveling the country for
months.
They are not just going to safe
blue havens, they've been going
to Mississippi and Wyoming, to
red states to talk about the
infrastructure law or the
American rescue plan.
When you do that, when
principles like that do that,
they get local media coverage.
White the what highs -- what the
white house does is
reprogramming Washington and
going directly to the people.
Whether that will work, we won't
know until the midterms.
Amna: White house official said
the other day there is enough
time, if they show the message.
David: I don't know, but I give
them credit.
What was historic this week,
Ukraine.
What happens in the war in
Ukraine maybe this month will
determine a lot of how our kids
live in what kind of world they
inherit.
China has a security deal with
the Solomon Islands.
Big things are happening.
And somehow the political world
is Marjorie Taylor Greene.
I give the Biden administration
credit for sticking to what
matters.
Once again, a big new arms gift
to Ukraine, they are very
focused on China and climate
change.
It may not work because we are
in a social media media circus,
but I give them credit, even on
the masks issue.
I think widen's -- Biden's
and things are right that it
should be a personal decision.
I think they focused on the big
things, but in a post-trump era,
I don't know.
They don't get a lot of credit
Amna: We could use more time to
talk about all these things as
well.
Always good to see you both.
Thank you.