So Ben, this episode will concentrate specifically on the Baptist's head and this tradition of
representing not the entire narrative of the martyrdom of John the Baptist. So in the earlier
tradition, visual traditions, we often have the representation of the imprisonment, the
banquet of Herod, the dance of Salome and then finally the beheading. Here particularly
in the Baroque period we see it paired back, stripped back to the essentials of the narrative.
So here as you can see in our Caravaggio we have just Salome, the executioner and one
witness maidservant perhaps with the salver and the presentation, let's say, of the head.
It's hugely concentrated and emotionally very concentrated to the impact of the image when
it reaches this stage is huge.
The figures are life size and in that projection of that strong arm of the executioner the
head of John the Baptist is being thrust forward into our space and making us very uncomfortable
as beholders standing in front of this picture.
Yes, you can't sort of feel entirely relaxed in front of this picture and the curious way
in which the Baptist's mouth lolls open again has a very visceral effect as well as reminding
us of the fact that the Baptist was once a preacher, the one whose voice cried out in
the wilderness and still that sort of echo of the open mouth is very powerful.
And part of that visceral effect I think is the way that Salome is holding that platter
is slightly tilted and you can just make out the pooling of the blood as she's about to
accept that head and it's really feeling like it's projecting into our space. And then again
there's some sort of ambiguity I think in the responses of the figures. To me the executioner
seems quite resigned but he's just doing a job as well. And interestingly Caravaggio
a master of cropping has cropped his composition in such a way that the executioner rests his
hand on the hilt of the sword and it's cropped in such a way that it forms a cross.
It calls to mind although a much later painting the Puvis de Chavannes we saw in our last
episode where the head of the Baptist is turned towards the cross. Here in Caravaggio's much
earlier work we see the same conjunction of Baptist head and something that evokes the cross.
And also to read the face of Salome looking out of the picture but not out at the beholder,
not in a confrontational way which we see in some traditions but slightly forlornly
out to the side.
Not callous, not rejoicing.
No, not smug or self-satisfied either, somewhere in between. And the only real figure who seems
to be lamenting this fact is the older woman in the background and you can see her hands
are folded in prayer, she's resting her chin on them in a kind of silent contemplative
way, perhaps in a way that we might approach a relic.
The way you've described the reducing down of the narrative which we see here reminds
me that there can be an even further reduction just to focus on the head on the platter with
everyone else removed from the scene and that this was a very popular artistic and devotional tradition.
For example in late medieval England large numbers of alabaster sculptures of the head
of the Baptist on the plate were made for people's homes. And it must have been a kind
of shorthand for people reminding them of the whole story, reminding them of relics
of the Baptist and a way to have something constantly present in their day to day lives
that reminded them of him and his importance.
And that idea of that devotional focus in the home as a constant reminder. It's quite
interesting because that continues right into the later modern and even contemporary traditions
because there is a fantastic artist called Ana Maria Pacheco and she's actually sculptured
a wooden polychrome sculpture of John the Baptist's head, which she's placed on a salver.
And it is actually kept by the collector in his house on his coffee table. I'll have to
show you what I mean.
Ben the owner of the head of John the Baptist carved by the Brazilian sculpture Ana Maria Pacheco
has kindly agreed to let us come see it and it occurred to me that we should actually
invite the artist herself, so she is actually going to be meeting us at the house ...
Fantastic.
... and there are plenty of questions we might have for her.
Well, Ana thank you so much for agreeing talk about this sculpture today.
Oh no no, don't mention it
I was just asking Ben if he'd seen it before and this is your first time?
I've seen photographs but there's a completely different experience when you feel in the presence
of ...
I know, but I suppose this is the thing about sculpture particular this kind of sculpture
because it is figurative. Since I came to England I started to recall my experience
as a child visiting churches and most have Baroque sculptures and what comes with it,
what's behind the culture. Hence the fact that I used the nails is because also, not
that the church would have that for obvious reasons, but there was particularly Brazil,
more than any other country in Latin America the influence of African sculpture because
we took probably the biggest number of slaves. And so this was so much part of the visual
experience. So I wanted to use the nails there to complete the notion of the hair but it
gives the hint of the crucifixion as well. And I use dowling as well to get the beard
kind of with ...
I noticed you've got very thick nails here sticking out but there's very small ...
Yes, tiny little ones, yes.
Tiny little, you just make out the heads of the nails in the beard as well which also
gives it that texture.
Yes, exactly.
We were just talking about the physicality of that, of the sculpture but also in making
it's quite a physical sort of work. Can you tell us about that process?
Normally this is actually quite small considering the other ones I do.
It's still bigger than life size when you see it.
Yes but I use chainsaw. My reason to use the chainsaw is because I couldn't do,
like they did in the 18th century, or even before, the kind of very detailed hair because it wouldn't
ring true because we have gone far away from it.
And you're not trying to recreate a Renaissance sculpture.
No, far from it. I came to this, it took some time to come to this solution because by cutting
it's too rigid. So I came to this idea of burning it. I torch, I burn it.
With a blowtorch?
Blowtorch, yes.
Is that just in the hair? Because you can sort of see it softens the edges, doesn't
it?
Yes it does and also the cut becomes less rigid so you can play with that. That is the
whole thing about the making, you have to discover solutions that convey and are tied up with the narrative.
I just was struck by that, because the chainsaw is a modern equivalent of the axe which we've
talked about being almost a symbol of the Baptist because he talks about trees being
cut down as a symbol of judgment.
Yeah, yeah
But of course also as an executioner's implement we have looked at executioners' swords and
that act of cutting.
And are you interested in that continuity or I mean obviously, unfortunately, beheadings
still takes place.
Yes but you see that is why when people say 'Ah, this work is not dealing with contemporary
issue' -- not quite, it's still. But I think it does help if you refer to some events that
did happen such long time ago. I think because it's still there but you are detached enough
and it won't be just an illustration of ... because of sedimentation of history in that particular
subject I think it's more interesting for that reason. The thing about why did I chose
John the Baptist was this idea of someone who did not accept the status quo and fought
to the end to that.
Because he is a man with bite isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, that's a good one!
That's why Herod is so disturbed by him and why he has to be got rid of and this revolutionary
nature had a terrible end doesn't it?
Well also he is always remembered in the best of what he preached for and the idea, the
visionary thing of the change of an order. What happens with revolutionaries, and that
is why probably I've chosen that particular moment because to me that is the statement,
if one wants to say, with the work is this idea that revolutionaries should never stay
but they always do.
Yeah, they give their message and then they should ...
Yeah well because they do because they are arrogant and power corrupts. I mean the cliché
but it's true.
John, lying open-mouthed here spoke, and the mouth is so important he spoke the truth to power.
Yeah, yeah.
He didn't ever take power and that gives him a very special ...
I think that's why my interest ultimately in that figure is probably for that reason.