SEAN CRAIG: Hey, this is Sean.
I'm standing outside of Conrad Black's house in the Bridal
Path neighborhood of Toronto.
You're probably somewhat familiar with Conrad Black,
the former Canadian media baron who owned newspapers
across every major English language speaking market.
After a lengthy trial that began in 2004, convictions of
mail fraud and obstruction of justice in 2007, and three
years of incarceration in a Florida prison, Black emerged
as one of the fiercest critics of the
American justice system.
And we're here to talk to Conrad Black about what it was
like living in prison.
Now, just as a kind of start off, a more informal question,
I'm wondering what was, like, the most enriching thing that
you learned in your time dealing with the justice
system, and dealing when you were in incarceration?
CONRAD BLACK: I can't say that dealing with the justice
system was enriching in any particular respect, other than
if you're taking a very sort of Hobbesian view of what
toughens us up, and immunizes us to outrages, hypocrisy and
oppression.
I was impressed that the--
now, I was in low security facilities, but I was
impressed that the quality of inmate was
higher than I expected.
These are people who, almost all of them could be and
should be recycled back into normal life
as quickly as possible.
There was almost no violence, and some of them were slightly
dodgy people, and many of them had done
objectively bad things.
But almost all of them were quite recoverable, and not
people who deserved to be stigmatized for life, and
ostracized, and treated as lepers, you know?
Morally or otherwise.
One person that was a student of mine got 20 years, first
offender, driving a truck with marijuana in it.
I mean, what are we coming to?
I mean, this is--
apart from not being quite so sanguinary, we're at the same
level here as chopping off somebody's hand for taking a
loaf of bread.
SEAN CRAIG: It's true.
CONRAD BLACK: Look, in a democracy, the people are
always right.
If that's what the Americans want, they can have it.
But I don't think they know that that's how
their system works.
And I think if they knew, they wouldn't approve of it.
One of the few things that helps people who are confined
keep their feet on the ground, and keep it in mind that there
is a great world out there that they will be getting back
to is when family and spouses, or children, or friends come
to visit them.
The rule, as I understand it in this new legislation is to
have a glass window between the visitors and the people
who are visiting.
Well, this is a completely unnecessary and gratuitously
dehumanizing thing to do.
And the official explanation for it
is to prevent smuggling.
Well, where we were, there were complete body searches of
everybody after every visit, no matter
how exalted the visitor.
You know, Henry Kissinger came to see me.
Brian Mulroney came to see me.
I had a strip search after that as if they were bringing
contraband to me.
SEAN CRAIG: Right.
CONRAD BLACK: But everyone goes through it.
You can stop that completely.
There is a great deal of smuggling into these prisons.
It is all by corrupt prison officials,
correctional officers.
All of it.
None of it goes through the visitor's center.
Nothing.
Not one Valium pill.
Nothing.
SEAN CRAIG: But then it ends up in the hands
of prisoners, right?
CONRAD BLACK: Yeah, but that isn't my point.
I mean, you know, in the words of one of the best lawyers in
our law proceedings, that was not my question.
The point is, why are you segregating the prisoners from
their visitors on the grounds of preventing the smuggling of
contraband when no contraband is smuggled that way, and it's
all smuggled in by correctional officers?
SEAN CRAIG: What would a correctional officer have to
gain from it?
Did you see those kinds of
transactions happening yourself?
CONRAD BLACK: Well, no.
What they gained from smuggling?
Well, they were well paid for it.
SEAN CRAIG: They were?
CONRAD BLACK: Yeah, of course they were.
SEAN CRAIG: And you saw smuggling take place, or--
CONRAD BLACK: I didn't.
I never saw it take place, but I certainly saw the results of
it floating around.
I was offered smuggled goods, and I never took any because I
didn't want any dispute with the bureau prisons.
SEAN CRAIG: Right.
Snickers bars?
CONRAD BLACK: You can buy those at the
commissary if you want them.
SEAN CRAIG: Thank you so much for welcoming us into your
home, Conrad.
It's absolutely gorgeous.
CONRAD BLACK: Thanks very much.
SEAN CRAIG: Thank you.