[Tom O'Loughlin] Anyone who looks back to Europe of the 16th century
can see at one level,
the beauty of Renaissance and the Age of Discovery,
or the so-called Age of Discovery.
They can also look back to the Reformation,
this great moment of religious awakening.
But of course also it is
a world of incredible religious conflict.
David, introduce us to this notion
that the world of the reformation
is also the world of religious conflict.
[David Gehring] Happily, happily. You're exactly right
that we can sometimes think of the 16th century as this great,
happy, positive place, but it was
also a nasty and brutish place.
And religious conflict is oftentimes at the heart of that.
When it comes to an understanding of
humanity's place in a divine galaxy and all that sort of thing
people differed and sometimes in genuinely awful ways,
with the result that many,
many thousands lost their lives
in the name of religion and dying for their religion.
[Tom] There are 2 themes in our,
in our discourse of religion.
Religion is that which can unite people.
But religion is dangerous because it actually,
it actually creates divisions.
It leads to conflict.
That is actually a 16th century notion isn't it,
that religion is a dangerous thing?
[David] It absolutely can be a very dangerous thing,
because on the one hand,
you and I may unite
in the name of religion that we agree, right?
We have an accord, but we might define
ourselves in opposition to somebody else.
And so that separation,
that definition by opposition,
could result in conflict.
It could result in military conflict,
political conflict,
some neighbourly contact - conflict
within our own village, right?
We might have ostracization in our villages.
We might have alienation and violence as well.
[Tom] The other interesting thing about conflict in
in the age of the reformation is that it leads to its own,
it leads to its own developments within religion.
I'm thinking for instance,
of Erasmus developing his whole,
his whole, theology of peace.
[David] Yeah. I think that religious irenicism
is a is a really, really
cool aspect of, of,
of history, of religious history,
because on the one hand we,
we can point to the various sources
of conflict, instances of conflict,
wars of religion, executions,
[Tom] Burnings. [David] burning at the stake,
and all sorts of nasty stuff.
But I think that irenicism and instances of
coexistence rather than conflict are equally interesting.
And a lot of historians, more recently,
much more recently,
are interested in looking at aspects of religious coexistence.
So say villages where the main church was actually
shared by Protestants and
Catholics at different times of the day, right?
Some hours for Catholics,
other hours for Protestants, right?
Same day, same village, same church.
So here we actually see instances of
coexistence and the avoidance of conflict.
But we also need to bear in mind that conflict is endemic
to the 16th century
and to the religious reformations themselves.
[Tom] There's also another development from that conflict.
And that is, and
I'm thinking slightly later than the 16th century,
people saying, well, a plague on all your houses.
Either, either religion becomes completley internalized or
else..., is it too
far to say that in the conflicts of
the 16th century is the birth of modern agnosticism?
[David] Ooh, it's tempting to head in that direction.
There have been some historians
who've investigated not just agnosticism,
but even atheism into the 17th century.
And although we see language
of atheism, of somebody being accused as an atheist,
a Godless heathen, all this sort of thing.
You'd be hard-pressed to find
a single atheist as we understand them in the 21st century.
You'd be hard-pressed to find a single one
during the early modern period.
They all believed in religion, God,
in various ways.
Though I think you're right when it comes to those
who maybe were less certain,
less dogmatic in their confessions,
in their theologies than were maybe the
diehards. [Tom] From what you're saying,
it's important that we bear in mind
the actual awful brutality of the 16th century.
[David] Yes. [Tom] ...but it's interesting,
irenicism, the 'live and let live' of that church
where they knew how to share.
It's a fascinating picture.
[David] It is. And when we think about the,
the conflict of the 16th century
and how much of that conflict was in the name of religion.
I think that Thomas Hobbes,
in writing in the 17th century,
may have been onto something when
he noted that life could be 'nasty,
brutish and short.' [Tom] And on that rather crisp note, thank you.
[David] You're very welcome.