... Men's College. So what's the attitude these days, would the union movement
put its hand in its pocket for education and training today?
Mr Steve Dargavel, State Secretary, Australian Manufacturing Workers Union
Well, the union movement supports the acquisition of portable skills and part
of the problem that we have today is that there is a lot of focus on vocational
training and, in fact, the first courses that were delivered by the Working Men's College
were courses like Algebra, Maths, you know, fairly generic sorts of education
as well as some fairly applied vocational education and as the economy
changes and employers want different specific skills the broad portable
skills are critical and the union movement supports broad, transportable skills,
so you're not married to the enterprise, you can go from one enterprise to another
and thereby increase your bargaining power in the market place. Of course one of the
significant problems today is that the private sector does not pick up the
trade training slack created by privatisation. A lot of our trade training was performed
by the public sector, the old SEC, the old Waterworks, all of those government
departments. Given that they're now privatised the private sector has not
picked up the slack. They've picked up the private benefit but they haven't
actually put in the training investment and so one of the earlier questions would
have been ... would it have been ... would it be easy today to get someone with a conviction
an apprenticeship, the real question is can you actually get someone an
apprenticeship and that's because there are a lot of employers not picking
up apprenticeships. We've had thousands of agreements with employers
that ... obliged employers to pick up apprentices and we're no longer
permitted to have those provisions in our agreements through the operation
of the work choices legislation.
Alan Montague, does Steve identify a weakness in our current system of
apprenticeship training?
Dr Alan Montague, Apprenticeship and Training Expert
Absolutely. With the privatisation of the gas and fuel, a number of jobs went by the by where they
were picking up a lot of people and equipping them with skills and they
were moving forward but I think now it's coming to a time where ... when governments
are letting contracts, I think that they should have in those contracts that
there's a certain number of apprentices that are taken on board. I mean if we look
at Citylink, for example, there wasn't an apprentice recruited at all in the whole ...
process of putting that together and I think that's a blight on the use of public money.
Are we doing any better with Eastlink or some of the other great infrastructure projects?
Well I doubt not. I mean we've sent submissions from RMIT to governments
recommending some of these provisions and we haven't heard a pip or a squeak
and any movement in that area and I mean we have group training companies that could move
people around, the portable skills, to assist those processes and the trade pathway's
an excellent pathway. I mean we're doing a lot of research in that area
proving that the people that do go that particular way lead a pretty
healthy and robust life and very highly employed, as you know.
We'll pick up on those themes, those problems, and some other ones as well as wrapping up shortly.
Just after the break we'll be back here at the Old Melbourne Magistrates' Court
for Channel 31 on the big screen at Federation Square and for RMIT University
as we have a look at whether Ned Kelly would have been better
reading rather than shooting. Better Read Than Dead for Ned Kelly.
Jon Faine, Master of Ceremonies/Moderator
Jon Faine with you at the Old Melbourne Magistrates' Court for
RMIT University and Channel 31 and on the big screen at
Federation Square as well. We're workshopping whether or not Ned Kelly
may have had a different outcome to his life and Victorian history may have been forever changed
if all the events that led to his execution had taken place after the
creation of the Working Men's College, which was the predecessor to
RMIT University. John Rawlinson, just before the break we heard that by and large
it's hard for apprentices to get a go on the big infrastructure projects that
are such a big part of our economy now. Can you explain why won't
governments insist that employers on infrastructure projects take on apprentices?
Mr John Rawlinson, Managing Director, Talent2
I can't actually explain that because it may ... it seems logical to me that that
would be ... that they probably should put pressure or at least build in some sort
of legislation or requirement that we do take on more apprentices.
I know that everybody agrees we have absolutely under-invested in training and training
these skilled trades people. I think the reason that they haven't been taking on apprentices
is we're in an environment of ... we talk about flexible workforce
and just in time skills and so everybody wants to be able to get the skills when they need them
but everybody's forgot that we need to invest in those skills in order for them to be available when
we need them. So it's a good question. I don't know why governments don't put more ... don't influence,
you know, large infrastructure projects more to take on apprentices.
It's one of the great riddles, one of the great mysteries of our current economy.
I just don't understand it but maybe someone can come up with a solution.
Let's just go round the panel before we run out of time and get your concluding
remarks on whether or not you think whether Ned Kelly may have had a better life
and Victorian history would have been forever changed if he'd come through RMIT
as it then was the Working Men's College instead of going off to prison.
Verity Burgmann, what's your instinctive feeling?
Well, unfortunately the historical evidence and in fact debates about social bandits
such as Ned would say that he couldn't have existed seven years later
and that the ... the circumstances that produce groups of primitive rebels like Ned
had changed. The Working Men's College, its establishment, was part of a maturing
of the labour movement and therefore conflict became more institutionalised
so people like Ned, with grievances against the system, would have joined the
Australian Shearers Union, formed in 1886, they might ... Ned might well have joined
other labour movement organisations and he wouldn't have been quite so
aggrieved 'cause there would have been appropriate channels for his grievances to
be voiced and therefore I don't think he would have got quite so mad.
Simon Brown-Greaves, why do we create the myth and the heroic status for someone who
basically was a police killer?
Mr Simon Brown-Greaves, Forensic Psychologist
Look, it's a really good question. I think people identify with the
underlying issues here and I think he had a lot of support in the community
at that time and I think the average man started to feel that he was dealt a
raw prawn, that the whole process by which he was brought to justice was probably unfair
and I think it struck a chord and Australians are pretty good at supporting
the underdog and I think Ned Kelly became one of our great underdogs.
Waleed Aly, we've seen in the Middle East Osama Bin Laden being treated
in much the same way as Ned Kelly is in Australia. Do you accept the parallel?
Mr Waleed Aly, Social Commentator and Author of People Like Us
I always get the Bin Laden questions [laughing]. No, I think there is an important
parallel in ... and part of the element that the discussion's been so far is that we're not,
when we're talking about Ned Kelly, talking about simple criminality.
I think there's an element of activism to this, there's an element of
community consciousness about it, of collective consciousness, and so just as
Bin Laden becomes a symbol for collective grievance that's disparate,
people who don't even necessarily agree with him will somehow draw some kind of inspiration
from him. I think Ned Kelly can work in the same sort of way. It's a symbol for a
collective type grievance and that's why I think to say if he was educated, you know,
would that have led to a different path. Well, arguably, it would have but perhaps not,
perhaps it ... what it would have done was given him more potent tools to act
politically, to act in a way that gave expression to the collective grievances
that he felt. There's an altruism to what he did irrespective of his methods that's kind of driving
his behaviour, that's different from simple criminality I think.
They've even got the same symbolism; you see Bin Laden has the turban and the beard,
which is much like the tin mask and the armour I suppose. They play a similar role.
Yeah, he had a pretty good beard.
Oh, yeah, pretty good beard, not a bad one at all, a bit like Bin Laden actually come to think
of it. Almost as good as Chaz's at The Chaser. Steve Dargavel, what is it about
the union movement that they're so attracted to rogues consistently across history?
Mr Steve Dargavel, State Secretary, Australian Manufacturing Workers Union
Unions understand that working class people are very significantly influenced by their environment.
Ned Kelly was the subject of a lot of persecution and that's ... I think that's quite clear. I like to
think that if Ned did have some training he would have undertaken a course
in journalism, I think he would have been a journalist [laughter].
And one of the reasons why I think he would have been a journalist is some of the best ...
Could have been a talk-back host, yeah.
... journalists ... some of the best journalists are rogues and secondly
he spent quite a lot of trying to get his message out and so I would like to think
that he would have undertaken a course in journalism.
Yes, Ned Kelly as a talk-back shock-jock, I can just see it now.
Lex Lasry, if Ned Kelly got such a raw deal, if it was such an unfair trial, how come
there wasn't popular revolt?
Oh, I think it's ... I think a parallel with the present is that there was a climate affair.
I think certainly people in Melbourne and probably people in the north east where
he would like to have declared the republic of north eastern Victoria were terrified
and regarded any measure that was taken to stop him as being justified and
really cared little for the outcome. There were demonstrations out in the streets
shortly before his execution but I think by and large the Kelly story indicates that governments can ...