Hi guys, thanks for tuning in to another video on ForgottenWeapons.com.
I'm Ian McCollum, and we're here today at the Rock Island Auction
Company taking a look at some of the guns that they're going to
be selling in their upcoming February of 2018 Regional Auction.
Today we're going to take a look at an M1A1 carbine.
This is a US World War Two
(and after World War Two) paratrooper's carbine.
So the paratroopers always need, or virtually always need,
some sort of lighter, more compact weapon to make it a little more
convenient to jump out of an airplane with. They've got enough
extra junk on them between a lot of extra gear
plus a couple of parachutes, etc., etc. that jumping
with a standard M1 Garand rifle wasn't the greatest idea.
So in May of 1942 the United States adopted formally the M1A1 carbine.
This was identical to an M1 carbine, with a wire frame folding stock on it.
And the idea was you'd fold the stock, and then the whole gun was really quite short
and could be stuffed into a bag or pouch attached to your leg,
and then it was really out of the way when parachuting.
It also was compact and situated right against ... the whole length of the thigh,
where it wasn't liable to get caught on something.
Like if you had an M1 Garand across the chest that sticks way out,
well, you're much more likely to catch that on something and break the rifle, or break the paratrooper.
The M1A1 fixed a lot of those issues.
They ... were adopted in May of '42, the first deliveries were made in October of '42.
And all of these were manufactured by the Inland Corporation, this was a division of GM.
Inland was the primary contractor making M1 carbines in general. They made like 43% of all M1 carbines,
and they made 100% of all of the M1A1s. Now that 100% is a grand total of 140,591 carbines.
They made them in two batches, ... about 50/50, one early in the war, and one a little bit later and apart.
And the problem we have today with M1A1 carbines is that the vast majority of them that you find are in fact fake.
So what I want to do is take a closer look at this one, and go through a couple of things
that you can look at to identify whether your M1A1 is real, or not so real.
Folded up like that it really is a very compact, handy little weapon, certainly valuable for the paratroopers.
And in fact all of the US Airborne Divisions would be equipped with these.
A few Marine Corps units also received them.
But they were very much a standard weapon, and that's why you see them so much,
and that's why they've become so iconic and popular, and why there are so many reproductions.
Now when it comes to actually shooting, well, they may not be quite such the hot item.
This folding stock is really kind of miserable to actually shoot with.
The alleged cheek pad is just a metal plate with a thin piece of leather over the top of it.
Just a wire frame stock. And then the butt plate is this metal thing that
has a coil spring in it so it can fold sort of flat against the side of the gun when the stock's folded.
Now it does have a pistol grip which is nice, but I'm not sure that that makes up for the stock itself.
These were quite handy to jump with, but there's a lot of anecdotal
... stories about them being not very popular to actually have to use.
The stocks were a bit on the fragile side. In fact, it's interesting that more of the wooden pieces survived
than the metal, because this was liable to be damaged, either unintentionally or
through some GI bending it against a tree in order to justify grabbing an M1 Garand once he was on the ground.
Anyway, that aside, let's take a look at what you can do to identify an authentic
M1 carbine folding stock as opposed to a reproduction.
So, first off, you're going to have a circle P stamp on the outside of the stock.
Now this one is a refurbished stock. So this stamp up here is from, coincidentally, the Rock Island Arsenal.
Not associated with the Rock Island Auction Company, just in the same city.
And they stamped this when they refurbished the gun. They also added this P proof mark when they did that.
However, the stocks did originally get that circle P proofing stamp, and it's located here on the back of the stock.
The one on the side was a second one added during the refurb process.
So you'll also find some marks on the bottom of the pistol grip. There is a crossed canon mark,
you'll kind of have to believe me, it's right there on the bottom of the grip. Later in the war
that would increase in size a bit, and you'll generally also see either an OI for Overton Inland,
or RI/3 for probably Royal Typewriter Inland.
Those were subcontractors who did some of the wood fabrication on these for Inland.
Turning to the metal aspects of the stock, the first thing to do is
(and this actually applies to the wood as well) is consider the status, the condition, of the stock relative to the gun.
So if you're looking at an authentic original M1A1 the stock and the action should have the same sort of wear.
You would not expect one to be pristine and the other to be really beat up.
Because if the stock's been on the gun the whole time, they've been through the same things.
So in this case we have a really nice stock, and we also have a really nice action.
So that does all make sense. Now this is also a refurbished action,
it's been upgraded to the late war standards for the M1 carbine.
And with that refurbishment process we would expect both pieces to be pretty nice.
So, you know as with, well, with any gun in general,
think about the story that is being presented with the gun: does it make sense?
The same thing applies to the leather cheek pad. It shouldn't look brand new,
it should have the same sort of wear to it that the rest of the gun does.
These three rivets should all be very flat and flush.
As they certainly are here.
There are both hollow and solid rivets that were used, so that can vary.
Just a side note, on the ... standard M1 carbine the oiler was used to retain the sling.
Since that was done in the stock, which is no longer there,
they added this little metal loop for a little oil bottle to go on the M1A1.
One of the most important things to look for when you're authenticating an M1A1 like this
is there's a cast marking inside the butt plate right here. And it indicates the drawing number for
this revision of the butt plate, and it should say B257614.
And it should be cast into the butt plate. So most fakes don't have this at all
(and by the way there is then kind of an asterisk looking symbol and a number from 1 to 12,
which I believe was the hour that it was cast,
in this case it's 4).
These marks will always be fairly faint.
I've got about the best camera angle to see them there I think, and we've got 7614,
we've got about the second half of that number fairly clearly visible.
Which is sufficient for me to say that, yeah, this is a real one. Most of the fakes won't have this at all.
Most of the ones that do have something like this, they will have stamped it instead of casting it into the piece.
And often as not, it's stamped to be pretty clearly readable,
because most of the time what will have happened is someone will have read
that it's supposed to be marked that. And they'll expect it to be a very clear marking,
not a faded one like this. In fact, that's correct, that's what it should look like.
If you're inspecting a gun like at a gun show or a gun shop,
you may not be able to take it apart to this level.
However, if you can, there's an important mark to look for inside the stock.
Right down here at the bottom on the inside of the stock, a real stock will be marked OI, and that's Overton Inland.
Overton being a subcontractor that made wood parts for the Inland Company.
So that should be on every one of these stocks. And if you can check for it, it's good to do so.
Most of the fakes won't have it. I should also mention that all of the originals are made of walnut.
Most of the reproductions are as well, but if you find one made of like beech,
you can pretty much immediately dismiss it as a reproduction or fake.
Having gone through all of that rigmarole you're probably wondering why we don't just say,
"Check the serial number and make sure it's a legitimate M1A1 serial number."
Well, unfortunately the answer to that is there is no surviving list of M1A1 serial numbers.
They were made basically at random as guns were pulled off the production line.
So the serial numbers can pretty much be anything. Now they do have to be Inland.
So if you look at the receiver of the gun, and of course this one has been
refurbished with an upgraded sight that covers much of this marking,
but if you look under here and it says any one of the other five manufacturers besides Inland,
it is absolutely not a legitimate M1A1 carbine.
As with so many other collectable guns, with M1A1 carbines there is a whole scale,
a whole range of authenticity and value.
So at the bottom of the barrel you have new commercially made carbines with reproduction folding stocks.
At the very top end you have original authentic military guns
from the beginning of the war that never went through any changes.
So in the middle, kind of the bottom middle,
you've got original guns that people have put fake or reproduction stocks on.
And then higher up, I think a really sweet spot for something like this, a balance of cost and authenticity,
is an M1A1 like this one that is entirely authentic and legitimate,
but did go through all of the military upgrade procedures.
So, of course a lot of collectors prefer them in the "as issued" state, rather than the upgraded state.
But you know what? This is a gun that went through World War Two,
and then many years afterwards, and is still in outstanding condition.
So if you're interested in this particular one, take a look at the description text below.
You'll find a link there to Rock Island's catalogue page for it,
where you can see their pictures and description and their value estimate.
And if you're interested you can place a bid, participate in the auction right through their website.
Thanks for watching.
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