- And what the research tells us
is that if you're holding a warm liquid,
you will think of me as a warmer person.
I've actually heated the cups with coffee or tea,
and I would actually hand that to the person
so they would at least be holding a warm liquid
and hopefully think of me as a warmer person.
My name is Mark Fallon.
I'm a former NCIS Special Agent.
After the attacks of September 11th,
I was the Chief Investigator
for the Al-Qaeda terrorist network
for trials before military commission,
and I've overseen thousands of interrogations.
[dramatic music]
[coffee pouring]
[fan whirring]
[buttons clicking]
Today we're gonna be breaking down interrogation scenes
in TV and film.
[static]
This scene is from "Knives Out".
- Harlan's nurse, she was at the party
in a professional capacity?
- Marta?
I guess, Harlan hired her to be around
to take care of whatever medical needs popped up.
But really, she's like part of the family.
- [Mark] Daniel Craig does a nice job
of strategic interrogation.
Practicing what's known in the research
is the strategic use of evidence.
Clearly he has done his research and planning,
and then he is strategically utilizing
different pieces of information,
in what we call "the funnel approach".
Where you start broad, and then you narrow down
the information that you're giving out
to see what the responses are.
And when you utilize a Scharff-technique,
you never let the person you're talking to
know what's important.
And that way, they don't know what to hide
or resist telling you.
- Are you baiting me, Detective?
You know he doesn't.
And if you think I am dumb enough to be baited
into talking family business...
- [Mark] Just because a person resists answering a question,
doesn't mean that they're guilty of a crime.
They may be withholding information,
but it may be for reasons totally unrelated
to the case you're investigating.
- Harlan never allowed any adaptations of his books.
Hated the idea.
- [sarcastically] No.
- Yeah. Drives Walt nuts.
'Cause that's where the real money is.
- [Mark] Daniel Craig does a nice job
articulating his questions, so that he is doing
more listening, than he is asking questions.
In an interrogation, I think it's critical
to kind of take a step back.
The technique that I instruct, the SMART technique,
the Strategic Methods of Assessing Reliability and Truth,
involves a first interview, followed by an assessment,
and then another interview to explore those gaps
that you've now determined, based on your analysis.
And that's what we saw in "Knives Out".
The Benoit character is someone that I would be happy
to work with in the field.
Of course, I don't think I'd have all those knives out
in an interview room, but it's good for the movie.
[static]
This next scene is from "Brooklyn 99".
- What are you smiling about?
- How uncomfortable this guy is.
Jacked up the thermostat, got the table all sticky,
made one of the chair legs too short.
- [Mark] The wobbly chair is another one of those
old urban legends.
When I came on the job in the '70s,
they talked about trying to make the person interviewed
so uncomfortable or off-balance.
There's actually no validity whatsoever to it.
What you saw was some negative priming,
Jake Peralta appeared to try
to make the witness uncomfortable.
And that's the exact opposite thing that you want to do.
You want the person to relax,
you want to diminish resistance, not increase resistance.
What you want them to do is what we call
"liking", because cooperation is volitional.
You want the person to want to help you along,
and not make them uncomfortable in the interview process.
What the research now tells us is that the standard
interrogation room that you normally see on television,
and that you actually see in many police departments,
is the exact opposite of what you would like.
And the more progressive departments now have,
what many call, "the soft room", which has nice,
comfortable furniture in it,
may have windows in it, to open up.
That would be a more conducive environment
to get information from somebody.
From the scenes I've seen from Detective Peralta,
he seems to have a great sense of humor,
had a lot of enthusiasm,
which are things that I would like to have on my team.
But I don't know about his police work.
[static]
This scene is from "the Dark Knight".
- I'm gonna need a cup of coffee.
- [Joker] Ahh, the good-cop, bad-cop routine.
- Not exactly. [loud buzzer]
[door slams]
[head hits table]
- [groans] Ow.
- [Mark] Slamming someone's head into a table
is the work of scriptwriters.
In the real world, you would be prosecuted
for that type of behavior.
- [Joker] See, I'm not a monster.
I'm just ahead of the curve.
- [Mark] This wasn't an interrogation,
this was just a beating.
The "Batman" movies are great entertainment,
but they don't mimic reality whatsoever.
The goal of any interview or interrogation
is to elicit information.
In the beginning of this scene, Commissioner Gordon
actually had the suspect talking,
and that's what yields the best evidence
and the best intelligence.
You have two ears and one mouth,
you should be listening at least twice as much
as you're talking.
- Where is he?
- What's the time?
- What difference does that make?
- Well, depending on the time,
he may be in one spot, or several.
- [Mark] Clearly this was a psychotic episode going on,
but you could still elicit information
from even a suspect like that.
You have some challenges in there,
because any information you get,
would likely be deemed unreliable.
However, it is still information.
[Batman yells]
- Where are they?
- [Mark] What occurred here
was ineffective managing of behavior.
So when you have someone who is like that,
you don't want to escalate,
because the behavior will escalate.
The key is to deescalate so that you get information
out of the person.
Commissioner Gordon would not be in police work today.
Having someone come in like Batman,
you will not get cooperation from that.
You may get compliance, but cooperation is volitional.
And there's just no way that you're gonna get that
when you're abusing somebody.
[static]
This next scene is from "The Wire".
- [Sean] So you can feel my heartbeat?
- Your pulse? Yeah.
- We'll start with an easy one.
Is your name, in fact, DeShawn Fredericks?
- Yeah.
[loud beep]
[machine whirring]
- True.
- [Mark] The scene here with the copier
is one of these urban legends
that's been around for decades.
What Detective Bunk does here
is jeopardizes his investigation.
If that suspect did give information,
it would be ruled inadmissible in a court of law.
And it would really embarrass the department.
- And did you and Marnell shoot your boy, Pookie,
down on Cary Street, just like Marnell said you did?
- Nah, no.
[loud beep]
[machine whirring]
- Lie. - [Mark] Currently most,
if not all states, allow law enforcement officers
to lie in interrogations.
There has been a push recently to make that illegal.
Some states have made it illegal for juveniles,
because it has resulted in false confessions
and erroneous convictions.
So Detective Bunk is practicing some things
that we are moving away from.
I used to teach because I was taught
that an innocent person would not confess
to a crime they didn't commit,
and that's absolutely inaccurate.
1/4 to 1/3 of the people who have been exonerated
by the physical sciences, have falsely confessed
to crimes they did not commit.
And so that's why we need to move away
from those approaches that you saw with Detective Bunk.
[static]
This scene is from "The Good Shepherd".
- [Male Speaker] Tell me your name! Tell me your name!
C'mon, c'mon, turn it off, get it off.
[male struggling]
- [Male Speaker] I'm gonna ask you your name,
what's your name?
[water splashing] [male struggling]
[gurgles water] - Tell me your name!
[muffled screaming]
- [Mark] I think this is an excellent example
of the EIT Program, Enhanced Interrogation Techniques,
in which the CIA tortured prisoners.
It was part of the CIA MK-Ultra Program,
and KUBARK Counterintelligence Manual
has these practices in it.
What you saw there is the manner in which the CIA
was torturing prisoners to extract information
that gravitated to Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.
They are illegal, immoral, ineffective,
and counterproductive.
And what you saw in that tape are war crimes.
- [Male Speaker] Sir, this is Lysergic acid diethylamide.
It's called LSD.
And we've had some very favorable results as a truth serum.
- [Mark] The CIA went and elicited assistance
from the most prominent psychologists and psychiatrists
in the world, and started experimenting
with different type of drugs,
with the thought that they could
elicit intelligence from that.
And each and every time the CIA
has experimented in this way,
it has resulted in some type of prisoner or detainee death.
There is no truth serum, sodium pentothal doesn't work.
It will get people to talk,
you just won't be able to understand,
or there won't be any coherence to it.
What happens is what's called "the signal-to-noise ratio".
Even if they told you something that was accurate
and liable, it would get mixed up and garbled
with a bunch of other inaccurate and unreliable information.
And it'll be difficult to tell the difference.
I think "The Good Shepherd" is an excellent movie to watch
because it does accurately depict some actions of the CIA.
And you can see the results that occurred.
It's just not an excellent movie
about obtaining reliable information.
[static]
This scene is from the "Watchmen" TV series.
[electric buzzing]
- How long have you lived in Tulsa?
[beeping]
- Five years.
Six, going on six.
- What'd you have for breakfast this morning?
[beep]
- Cereal, I think.
- I think if I defecated on the American flag,
how that make you feel?
[beeping continues]
- Confused.
- [Mark] Nothing in that replicates
anything close to reality, not just fiction,
it was science-fiction.
First of all, it wasn't an interrogation,
it was a barrage of information.
It was bartering with some sounds,
and some different lights.
Actually not uncommon in some of the EIT Program,
where they actually played music, loud music,
and had people in periods of darkness or light.
The problem is that none of that elicits
accurate, reliable information.
It just meant to subject the person to some type of duress.
Nothing in that scene would be conducive to an interview.
It's an abomination,
as far as an interrogation professional goes.
- [Masked Man] Are you a member of,
or do you associate with,
members of the white supremacist organization
on this Seventh Cavalry?
[beeping]
- No.
- He knows.
- [Angela] You sure?
- I started landing on all the Rorschach.
Yeah, I'm sure.
- [Mark] Generally people think that liars
might fidget more.
There's no science whatsoever
behind what's called "micro-expressions",
where people are trying to look
and detect cues about deception.
The best method of detecting deception
is a known or checkable fact.
And that's why you investigate, not just interrogate.
The odds of somebody trying to detect deception,
based on visible cues, is about a coin toss.
The problem is that law enforcement officers
think they're better at it than the general public.
It's just slightly better than chance.
[static]
This scene is from "Basic Instinct".
- The attorney's gonna join us.
- Miss Tramell has waived her rights to an attorney.
- Did I miss something?
- I told him that you wouldn't want an attorney present.
- Oh.
- [Male Speaker] Why have you waived your right
to an attorney, Miss Tramell?
- Why did you think I wouldn't want one?
- I told him you wouldn't want to hide.
- I have nothing to hide.
- [Mark] In the scene where Sharon Stone
waives her right to an attorney, is not uncommon,
particularly with the higher ranks of people
that I've had to interrogate,
because they have a feeling of superiority.
So that's what you use to your advantage.
If a person has a more dominant personality,
the better rolls they'd be more submissive,
because you elicit more information and vice versa.
- You like playing games, don't you?
- I have a degree in psychology, goes with the territory.
- [Mark] The scene from "Basic Instinct"
has several red flags.
You would never want to have weapons displayed,
that could be used by a defense attorney
to say there was some type of coercion
with the display of weapons.
If I were in charge,
it would be a much smaller interview team.
It would be me and a note-taker.
There may be a team that's supporting the interrogation,
but usually on a monitor, or behind a mirror.
Having a team of goons sitting around a semicircle
of a beautiful woman is just totally unrealistic.
You want to develop a rapport, and that's not a team sport.
- Would you like a cigarette, Nick?
[dramatic music]
[Nick scoffs]
- You two know each other?
- [Nick] No.
- No.
- [Mark] If I was the lead investigator,
and there was an apparent connection
between Sharon Stone and Michael Douglas,
there would be a break called, we would go outside
and try to get to the bottom
of what this apparent relationship was.
And I don't think that I would have Michael Douglas
back in the interview room with me, on this particular case.
[static]
This next scene is from "When They See Us".
- Antron McCray and Raymond Santana
said they saw you rape the lady.
- I never saw- I never saw it- no lady.
- Who you talking about?
- The lady in the park.
- I didn't see a lady or hit anyone.
- Raymond saw you hit her!
- You saw coercion there,
you saw a number of different tactics
to try to just convince, in this case, juveniles,
that they're only out is to confess.
And we see the results of that today,
where we're still having people who are involved in lawsuits
over false confessions, due to similar tactics.
What you saw was incredible maximization, right?
Incredible pressure.
And then to relieve that pressure, they give them
a more favorable alternative to that.
And the person who's under that type of duress and pressure
then takes that alternative as the better option.
Many times they think that they'll be resolved later,
but unfortunately it never works in their favor.
In the clip we just saw was horrendous police work.
And really what the practice of policing
needs to move away from.
[static]
This scene is from "Breaking Bad".
- [Male Speaker] Jesse, you're never boring.
- Not boring at all.
So, come on buddy. Share with us.
Why were you tossing millions of dollars
all over Albuquerque?
- [Male Speaker] I promise you, we can hold out
just as long as you can.
- [Mark] As long as someone is talking,
I will be learning something about them, or from them.
What we saw the detectives do was nothing
that would produce any type of sounds
from their suspect there.
It appeared that they tried to keep control,
and it's not control that you're looking for,
it's cooperation.
There was no empathy, they didn't appear genuine.
I think their approach was lacking in that regard.
- [Hank] Look, I'm only asking for a couple minutes here.
- You said he wouldn't talk to you?
Let me tell you, the kid hates my guts,
despises me, okay?
Maybe I can get him cranked up enough
that he starts yapping.
- [Mark] The suggestion to amp it up in there
is nothing that I would recommend.
It's not uncommon to work together, share suspects,
have different departments
conduct interrogations of the same person.
What is unusual, is that you would just walk away,
and let it happen without even observing it.
[beep] [camera turns off]
- [Mark] The videotaping of interrogation, in many states,
is mandatory, because it captures a depiction
of what happens in the room.
Clearly, in the scene, it's personal for Hank,
and turning the tape off, it's a red flag
that goes up right there.
Right now in the field of interrogation,
there is a new wave coming,
a wave of science-based methods to elicit accurate,
reliable information for effective questioning,
and effective interviewing.
So we can move to more effective interviewing strategies,
to regain trust in our communities,
and protect the public safety and our national security.
[dramatic music]