actually if we want to say if we want to
pick up Anthony hey Marc
hi um I wanted to talk about values Lots
last time I called I talked about
beliefs and I don't think you share a
lot of our beliefs I share there I agree
um we have an affirmation of faith and
values and the faith is the faith is as
the Bible is the Word of God you don't
believe that right correct um there is
one true and living God who exists in
three persons God the Father Jesus
Christ in the Holy Spirit but did you
believe that before sure I used to
believe that dumb believe it God created
all things for his glory
yeah don't mean you don't believe in God
or any God made anything yeah I'm not
even sure I believe this is actually
marked uh this is mark talked to you
before
well okay everybody knows that and
anybody can you know try to to take what
you're saying how do I know it's mark
well I go to the Austin Stone Church
Siri you said that every time you call
in what do you want to know I don't know
I don't have any way of telling so I
mean what is it what is it you wanted to
address well we have we have values -
sure um an authentic and intimate
relationship with God hey Mark do you
have any original thoughts or you're
just going to keep reading me what your
church says well I just wanted to know
what what values you believe well
there's lots of things that I value love
happiness health those types of things
I've given an entire talk on the
superiority of secular morality and how
you can begin with very very
guineas and establish values that build
up to a more complicated moral system
what about submission to the God of the
Bible why we even ask something so silly
why would I believe - why would I have a
value that has me submit to something I
don't believe in you know what else I
won't submit to anything in the sense
that you're talking about it well plus
time I talked to Tracy she said God was
just like Santa Claus sure yep from our
point of view I mean I even go one
further we've compared God and and other
supernatural claims that aren't
supported by evidence we've compared
them to Santa Claus leprechauns all
kinds of things and I'll go a step
further and say that leprechauns are by
definition as our most Cryptozoic things
our cryptozoological things more
plausible than your God simply because
they are less powerful it's more likely
that there's a magical fairy out there
who can do some things then that there's
a magical transcendent being who can do
anything now I think they're both
absurdly implausible but if we're going
to compare the two fairies when you
don't believe in fairies do you know so
why do you want no one believed in that
well yes actually yes actually there are
people who believe in that kind of thing
and the Cottingley fairies hoaxes
demonstrated this quite nicely when even
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed that he
had evidence of fairies so you're
claiming that nobody believes it not
only it's wrong but it's irrelevant what
difference it make if somebody believes
it I asked whether or not you believed
it and you said no now how is it you can
say no you don't believe something
that's more plausible than God yet still
believe in God well there's there's no
Bible for fairy there's no religion for
fairies so so so what what why is the
Bible relevant I mean there's a Quran
you don't believe in Allah do know okay
so can we agree at least at the bye
is irrelevant to whether or not there is
a God I mean well a lot of people read
the Bible at my church who just read
this morning okay would you read this
morning we read sermons this time it was
about heaven okay and so a lot of people
read it and and you think that's enough
to say that it's worth believing because
a lot of people have read Harry Potter
yeah but you believed it too so yes I
think that you're you're done - no I'm
not saying you're dumb I'm saying that I
used to believe it and then when I
investigated why I believed it I found
that I didn't have any good reason to
believe it and why do you think you
believed it for twenty years because I
was wrong I did not realize that I
didn't have a good reason and as soon as
I did realize that I stopped believing
the difference is that when you come up
against a wall in front trying to
prevent some reason for you to believe
it you just stop thinking you don't stop
believing I was wrong that doesn't mean
I was any more stupid was I dumber with
regard to the truth of biblical things
you bet was I was I an idiot with regard
to whether or not a God exists yes but
that doesn't change who I am being wrong
about something or being stupid in one
area or being uninformed in an area or
dumb or whatever label you want to put
on it doesn't mean that you or I as a
person is completely stupid I'm dumb I
am an idiot about a great many things
including as we've seen in the last week
or so finances I'm a when it comes
to investigate investing and and
managing my money in a reasonable way
it's something that I've always had to
deal with but does that mean I'm an
idiot across the board of course not but
I do at least recognize that I have this
issue and so I'm getting help with it
well mark I have a question for you yeah
why do you believe
well I think I think maybe like last
time I talked to Tracy she said she was
indoctrinated mm-hmm I don't know like
what I don't know exactly what a
doctrine age means but means you were
brought up in an environment that
encouraged a belief without evidence to
support it right but we went in parents
and donate their kids for Santa Claus
kids don't believe it anymore but they
still believe in God but this the
difference is if at some point the kids
realize that Santa Claus doesn't make
sense and at that point parents stop
reinforcing that belief or in the case
of my kid he never believed in Santa
Claus so you mean if we stop reinforcing
this belief then we'll stop believing it
yes yes um do you think if people
stopped going to church don't stop
believing it no no I think if parents
stopped reinforcing these beliefs
stopped teaching their kids that this is
literally true then then yeah
people will stop believing it you're
confusing the scope of this on an
individual level there's no guarantee
that any person who stops going to
church is going to stop believing but I
will say that the people who escape and
avoid the constant reinforcement and
constantly being surrounded by people
who believe that stuff those people are
more likely to stop believing that's
just a demonstrable fact it's the reason
why groups like the American Family
Association are worried about kids who
go off to college because the number of
college students who abandon their
religious beliefs within the first
couple of years is staggering and it's
the reason why you and some others are
worried about youth in your church who
are watching this program and getting
ideas at because on some level on some
level and I know this is insulting and I
apologize but we've had a number of
conversations and whenever you've been
asked why you believe something you have
yet to give anything other than because
a pastor said so or because a sermon
said so you haven't expressed any action
reason on your own any thought behind
what your beliefs are and when I think
no matter how insulting this is
that you are aware on some level that
you have no good reason for your beliefs
and you're worried that nobody actually
does otherwise you would not have any
concern at all about whether or not a
kid is exposed to additional information
because I'm not sitting here at in this
chair on the show asserting that your
beliefs are false I'm simply saying that
your beliefs have not met their burden
of proof that you guys haven't been able
to provide meet the standards of
evidence that any reasonable claim
should be there's absolutely nothing
objectionable at that about that it's
true you guys wouldn't object to this
sort of comment with regard to any other
claim if I said that Bigfoot hadn't met
its claims you'd be okay with that and
the same thing with fairies but because
it's something about something you
believe you're going to object to it and
I think that this betrays your own
doubts about what you believe and all
I'm saying is that's not a bad thing
embrace it don't be afraid of it because
if it's true if your beliefs are true
the truth has absolutely nothing to fear
from investigation if you if something
is true the more you investigate it the
more brightly the light should shine and
expose that truth and what I would in
ojai right yeah it will when you were a
Christian what would you think like this
won't what's your reason
my reason at the time for why it was a
Christian yeah I don't know that I would
have given a good answer I probably
would have it just like night I yep yes
yes oh you're being hypocritical know
how hypocritical I am encouraging you to
take ice I've already said I was in the
same position you were in mark I'm not
being hypocritical I am encouraging you
to take the steps that I took and
embrace your critical thinking skills
and to foster your critical thinking
skills so that you have a good
understanding of what sort of evidence
you need what what have I said the tip
of critical well you just said you don't
have a reason but you didn't have a
reason either right exactly and I say
that rose with Dhamma it
it was unreasonable to believe something
and as soon as I realized that I didn't
have a good reason I stopped believing
well okay I look I I know I'm on your
side on a few things like a lot of
people in my church
say like if if the Bible says if you if
you're a man and you you have sex with
another man that's an abomination yeah
so so I don't like that I know that
that's not this that's not Christian
because he said you should love your
neighbor you know some things in the
Bible are good like you should love your
neighbor and some things like okay how
do you go about deciding what's what
what in the Bible is right and what in
the Bible is wrong well you know what
you know what can I just say one thing
you know some some people say they
Christians but some of the people who
are Christian they like or or they like
something like that so they're not
Christians I don't care about what some
Christians do the question I'm asking is
I agree with you there are some true
things in the Bible and some false
things in the Bible we're in agreement
how do you tell the difference you just
uh well you just know that like Jesus
was good cuz you know no no no no you
don't just know there is a pathway to
truth there is a pathway to discover
whether or not something is true and
saying you just know it is not included
in that pathway so if I were to tell you
anything else how would you go about
figuring out whether it was true or
false
um well you'd have to like well what's
an example the age of the earth
sure well I know like scientists found a
lot of
in pain we don't we don't determine the
age of the earth with fossils but in any
case what we're talking about there is
evidence okay yeah now let's get away
with physical truths about the physical
nature of the universe because that's
fairly simple despite the fact that your
Bible gets a number of things wrong like
whether or not bats or Birds and whether
or not grab its to the cud I dismissed
that as the ignorance of the people who
wrote it and so by the way to most
Christians because they recognize
there's no way to reconcile this with an
all-knowing God but let's talk about
moral things the Bible is clear that
having a man having sex with another man
as an abomination yet you disagree with
the Bible are you - I don't think they
should be filmy to gay people I well I
completely agree but your Bible says
that your God says it's an abomination
not only death but but you're supposed
to stone gay people ok ok yes I don't
think you should stone gay people yet
yet but the Bible says you're supposed
to actually sign dessert I don't believe
are you serving a professor so so
there's some things in the Bible you
believe in some things you don't believe
and I'm asking I understand your reason
or your explanation for why you don't
believe them but you let's you're right
here now you can't see me so you reject
some things in the Bible and accept some
other things in the Bible and somebody
else in your church disagrees with you
and they accept some things in the Bible
that you reject and they reject some
things that you accept how did the two
of you decide who's actually correct I
don't I don't know don't you think
that's important to find out yeah like
there's Muslims of all sorts of
different religion well we're not even
talking about mr. Church Austin I mean
did are you are you saying that nobody
everybody there agrees with you that
there's nothing wrong with being gay I'm
pretty sure that there are people at
Stone Church who would say that the
Leviticus passage is about it being an
abomination for man
why with another man is actually the
opinion of God now that puts you in
disagreement with somebody at your
church hypothetically how would you go
about resolving this how do you find out
who's right I don't know okay don't you
think that's something you should know
yeah so me well maybe you should just
maybe you should just make friends with
some gay people and and and see if
they're bad people what difference does
that make
I mean maybe to see to see if it's true
that they're an abomination
well no no but the passage means it's an
abomination to God that God thinks it's
evil it doesn't matter to God whether
gays are good or not so you're going out
meeting them doesn't tell us anything
you could meet a homosexual who's an axe
murderer and you can eat a homosexual
gives up all their time to charities but
that tells us nothing at all about it
because people aren't all the same the
lower so maybe you should maybe you
should look at the other thing Jesus
then like one of your neighbor it
compares out with Leviticus okay and so
now you've got a well first of all love
your neighbors kind of generic I mean I
don't know that it necessarily means
intercourse but you know say saying love
your neighbor in one passage in saying
kill the people there's a passage that
says that if anybody tries to lead you
to another God including your wife yours
should be the first hand on them to put
them to death
so you've got one passes it tells you to
kill somebody who leads you to another
God and another passage tells you to
love them now which one do you follow
and why - look why why it's just like an
instinct okay well I'll praise you for
having instincts that seem to be more
moral than than the the contrary but it
seems to me that if you're just going to
go on instinct
why why do you believe anything about
the Bible or this God or Jesus or
whatever if you have given yourself the
authority to go through and pick the
parts of the book that you instinctively
feel are true
so maybe I just trust myself not even
listening to the Bible amen
there you go everybody here is clapping
for you mark
everybody now here's the thing don't
just listen to yourself because you can
be wrong I can be wrong Jen can be wrong
we've all been wrong before
you have to actually make a concerted
effort and look at what's going on
around you and have conversations with
other people because how do we decide
whether or not we consider something to
be moral or immoral it has nothing to do
with what some old book said or somebody
else's opinion it has to do with the
consequences of that action and
realizing that your actions have impact
on other people and their actions have
an impact on you and when those when
this these are those students come in
conflict that's where we make
assessments with respect to our values
because when gay people have sex it
doesn't hurt anyone else
yeah that's unless like they hurt each
other well you know we'll assume it's
consensual
I know plenty of people who hurt each
other in sex and are really happy about
it but we'll say that for another time I
got to go mark thanks for the call come
to my church sometime I May 15th I'll be
there we really like you
May 15th I like