The Vatican penned a secret deal
With the Chinese Communist Party
Now, the officially atheist Party
Can appoint Catholic Bishops in China
What does this mean for Chrisitans in China?
Welcome to China Uncensored.
I'm Chris Chappell.
Joining me today is Cardinal Joseph Zen,
the former bishop of the Catholic Church in Hong Kong.
He's been an outspoken defender of human rights and has been called
the conscience of Hong Kong.
Thank you for joining me today.
Thank you.
So, for those watching, could you give us an idea of
what it's like to be a Christian in China?
It's very complicated thing because in the constitution
they say there is freedom for religion,
but actually you have to follow the directive of the government.
Recently, it seems that they are particularly worried about
the so-called foreign religion,
especially the Christian religion.
So, they have hard life.
We Catholics in China,
we have a big problem because we are split into two communities.
One, the so-called underground,
those who want to keep their faith and refuse
to follow the directive of the party
because religion is not part of the party.
There is another part, another community,
for any reason they thought it's okay to accommodate and compromise,
and they follow the government.
Being separated into two community create other problems.
So, there's basically the state-run churches
controlled by the Chinese Communist Party
and those who worship underground, as you say.
Yeah.
What kind of pressure do the underground Christians face?
You see, China is so big so the situation
is different from place to place.
You can have a place where the underground is the majority
or other places where they are the minority.
You may have a place where they can live in a peaceful coexistence.
Then you have other places where they fight each other.
It's a very different situation.
Now, I make some important example, for example, in Shanghai.
Shanghai is my native city.
In Shanghai you have both communities rather strong.
Then, they live almost peacefully together.
Then in other places,
you have high tension between the two parts.
You see, before this agreement between Vatican and Chinese government,
in several places like in Hubei,
in Sensi, in Fouken, in Wenzhou,
they have churches, buildings for the underground.
They are tolerated for a long time.
The government never give too much trouble to them.
Surely, they are considered out of law,
but they are tolerated.
There are buildings, even big buildings.
Why?
Because you suppose in the town you have
a great majority belonging to the underground church,
and they are good people.
They work hard.
They behave.
In the town there is no robbery, no fighting,
so the local official are satisfied of the people,
so they tolerate.
They are not making trouble.
That cannot happen in the big cities
because you have the foreigners,
so they cannot allow for churches or buildings,
otherwise they lose face.
There you have many priests who say mass on Sunday,
and they have a big congregation in the private house.
See, the government, you know-
Turns a blind eye.
Yeah, and everybody know.
It's no secret at all.
You see, it's a difficult situation,
but here you can survive.
Now it's much more difficult now.
It's gotten worse for Christians in China?
Oh worse, much worse.
Much worse.
This did not happen just overnight.
It's a long history because in the last,
say, 15, 20 years in the Vatican,
those who manage the business of church in China,
they follow the wrong strategy.
I was going to ask about that.
I know the Vatican has made a deal with China
that allows the Chinese Communist Party some control
over appointing bishops in the Catholic churches in China.
Why do you think the Vatican was pushing that?
I said it's a long history.
Those bishops in the official church,
are chosen by the government mostly.
Sometimes the Vatican sees that they are acceptable people,
but sometimes I think they know very well
that those people are not fit to be bishops.
I think there's been cases where some of the Communist Party
appointed bishops have families, children, affairs.
Exactly, yeah.
Then, sometimes the Vatican refuse to approve,
but now recently they approved all those seven,
excommunicated bishops.
That's incredible.
Just for clarity,
bishops that the church previously excommunicated
because they were appointed by the Communist Party.
Yeah.
They are ordained, chosen by the government.
Ordained without permission from Rome,
so they were excommunicated.
Seven of them.
One died before.
There were eight,
but at that moment seven.
Then they say,
"Oh, they repented of their actions,
so now the Pope has lifted the excommunication.
The second step is to recognize them as bishops."
Now, it's okay to lift excommunication.
That's okay because you just have to show
a little repentance is enough,
but how can you appoint these people to be bishops?
Incredible.
What is your main concern with
the Vatican's deal with the Chinese Communist Party?
Now, first of all, they say the deal
is only about the selection of bishops,
appointment of bishops,
but it's a secret deal.
Why should it be secret?
Why?
Now, being secret,
we don't know anything,
and the people don't know how to behave.
Because now the government come to tell the people
anything they like.
They said, "This is already approved by the Pope."
Our people don't know whether it is true.
We know it is not true.
For example, they now come to tell the underground priests,
"You have to come up now.
Join the association because the Pope already has agreed."
Now, it's not true, so the people doubt.
There is no word from the Vatican,
so why they don't make public the agreement?
They say, "Oh, it's provisional."
Okay, even provisional agreement can be public.
When you have to change or abrogate,
you can do that.
Now it is enforced, this one.
People should know what is agreement.
So, it's created a lot of confusion in the churches in China.
Terrible, terrible, yeah.
Do you think the situation is getting worse?
Getting worse also because, you see,
the way the Vatican dealing with the official church
is always so lenient.
Even before the agreement,
before approving those seven bishops,
they always try to please the government.
In this church,
many of the bishops even those approved by the Vatican,
they are not good bishops.
They are what Pope Benedict used to call opportunists.
They do the work for the government,
not for the church.
Sometimes the Vatican approved them
just because the pressure from the government.
Not because those people are found fit to be bishops.
With the recent agreement,
with the approval of the seven excommunicated,
now they are thinking triumph.
They are saying, "You see, we are made good choice.
We are on the side of government.
The government is fighting for us.
Now we have the victory.
You stupid people.
You are still fighting in the underground, so come on, join us."
Many are tempted to join.
That's [inaudible] church.
It's given the officially atheist Communist Party
a lot more control over Christians and Catholic.
Yeah, ruining the church.
The government is ruining the church.
Now, they are very clever.
They say, "No, no, no.
We have the bishops conference.
We have the Patriotic Association.
They work together," but they are fake.
There's no real bishops conference.
I mean, there's a name,
but they don't have any power.
It's just sort of a show.
Sure.
There's no distinction between the Patriotic Association
and the bishop conference.
They work always together,
but presided by the government official.
This is not Catholic Church.
It's a Communist Party church.
Communist Party running church.
Now, do you feel like your criticisms of this, of this deal,
do you think the Vatican has heard you?
You see, Pope Benedict did two wonderful things.
One is to write a letter, a wonderful letter, 12 years ago.
Wonderful letter.
Wonderful because really a masterpiece of balance.
Very clear doctrine and also very open attitude.
But, incredible, the Holy See even dared
to manipulate the Chinese translation of letter.
Really?
Manipulate how?
First of all, there are many translation letter.
They are wonderful translation,
but Chinese translation is horrible.
Many mistakes.
I mean, mistakes because the translators
are not even competent in the language,
in the Italian language.
There is a point where it was not a mistake,
but it's a manipulation.
A manipulation in favor of the Communist Party?
No, a manipulation in favor of this surrender to the Communist Party.
Because the question was, should the people from the underground
come up and join the Patriotic Association?
Now, the answer is in principle there should be no objection.
We are entitled to officiate publicly,
but in fact, in no few instances,
indeed almost always,
the government would put conditions
unacceptable to our Catholic conscience.
So, they omitted indeed almost always in a very important point.
So, the Chinese translators let that part out
to make it seem like Christians and Catholics inside China
should just join the Communist Party run church.
Yeah, yeah.
Wow.
That's a big manipulation.
Terrible.
It changed the whole thing.
They even refused to correct.
I got a few bishops and competent people
like the most famous biblical scholar.
He knows all the languages.
Then also the Rector of the Catholic University
to testify that there are mistakes there.
They refused to correct.
Incredible.
Fortunately, there is an official who controls all this.
When I told them there are mistakes, he said,
"Okay, if you have witnesses to prove that there are mistakes,
we correct."
After one year, they correct it.
It's terrible.
Then the second thing the Pope did is a wonderful commission.
A commission of more than 30 people,
half of them from the Holy See,
half from this part.
From Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan and China.
The commission worked for five years, but you see,
the Vatican people, they always have the upper hand.
So, they manipulate also there the working of the commission.
Little by little, the commission could do something.
There was plenty of opportunity to talk, to discuss.
You just imagine the plenary session every year lasts three days,
from morning to evening.
You can talk a lot.
So, it was making big progress, but you see,
the commission is called consultative.
It doesn't make decision.
That means the commission is supposed to
give advice to the Holy Father, and he decides.
But, the discussion of three days, so thick,
how can you supposed to read all that?
They rarely make any deliberation.
So, the real power still remains
with the officials of the Vatican,
and they don't tell the Holy Father
the whole reality of the meetings.
Terrible.
The only time we made a vote, clear motion,
still they just neglected it.
They went on their own way.
That's terrible.
When Pope Francis called this Parolin
to be the secretary of state,
and so the chairman of that commission,
he made that commission disappear.
No more meetings.
Disappeared.
Not even a letter saying,
"Oh now, the commission has fulfilled its historical role."
No, no, just disappeared.
Incredible.
What effect did that have?
No more dialog.
Our voice no more reach the Holy See.
No more.
Disappeared.
And, we had also an archbishop,
number two in the congregation.
They sent him away.
So, the commission disappeared.
We were so many experts.
They think they don't need our expertise.
They are discussing with China.
The Chinese are masters in playing with words.
Manipulation.
But they're happy to allow themselves to be cheated.
That's the point.
Incredible.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
It's been a pleasure.