WINFREY: Well, Deborah Pfeiffer is the mother
of four who actually uses a whistle
to get her children to stop fighting.
She says the rivalry is so bad that she won't
leave her children alone because she's afraid she'll
come home to a dead body.
Recently, we spent a day with Deborah and her children.
Take a look.
Ms. PFEIFFER: This house is like a war zone from the time
they get up in the morning to the time they go to bed.
They're wrestling, scratching, biting, choking,
rolling on the floor.
The two that fight the most are Robert and Jacob.
JACOB: I hate Robert.
He's really annoying. He's stupid.
He's--he's always complaining about everything,
he's al--always like in the room,
`Wah, wah, I didn't get it my way.'
ROBERT: He starts, like, a lot of stuff,
because he--he, like, hits me and stuff.
Ms. PFEIFFER: These two boys are out for blood.
We have a pool in our back yard and I had one actually hold the other
one at the bottom of the pool.
And if I wasn't out there, I think he'd still
be at the bottom of the pool.
Three months ago it was really bad.
I walked into the house.
Within five minutes both Robert and Jacob were in
such a big fight I threw both of them in the car
and took them to the police station.
ROBERT: And I had, like, marks around my neck and stuff
because he was choking me.
Ms. PFEIFFER: I took them to the police station because
I wanted them to know you can't do bodily harm to another
person. I'm frustrated; I can't stand it.
I'm really sad about it that I have these
two boys that can't get along.
JACOB: Just this morning, he was--hit me with the dictionary and stuff,
so I put him in a hold and started yanking his head back by his hair.
Ms. PFEIFFER: I cry a lot and I wonder why my kids hate each other.
ZACH: I don't like my brothers. They just bother me all the time.
MICHELLE: I would like to see them stop fighting.
Ms. PFEIFFER: I get depressed a lot about it.
Sometimes I feel like is this the only family that's like that?
JACOB: Until we stop the fighting,
I think we should all be treated evenly and everything.
I think I'm treated the worst because I'm the middle child.
I think my parents like Michelle a lot more than they
like everyone else.
Ms. PFEIFFER: They think because she's the girl and she's
the youngest that she gets special favors.
JACOB: In my life, I've got, like--I don't know, like,
13 pairs of shoes and right now, in her closet,
she has about 20.
All the time I wish I was an only child.
Ms. PFEIFFER: I didn't have any siblings so I really
don't know what sibling rivalry is all about.
I'm really worried about high school.
When the boys start to bulk up, if they're fighting like
this and they're bigger, there's going to be bigger damage.
So I'd like to stop it before it gets out of hand.
WINFREY: I don't know what's going on--see, never is it--
I mean, I've done enough of these kinds
of shows to understand that it's never just about the two boys,
that there's something going on in this family.
I don't know what it is...
Ms. PFEIFFER: Well...
WINFREY: I don't--I don't know what it is, and Dr. Ruth Peters is here.
You obviously know that there's something else going on.
Dr. RUTH PETERS: There generally is, and it could be that
one of them generally is--one feels that they're not the
favorite or `Somebody's getting two cookies more than
I got yesterday' and they're using their calculators
and it's not adding up even.
It could be that or it could be
something even deeper, where in Tyra's case she was being constantly,
constantly pounded--pummeled by her or--brother
or emotionally pummeled and he always felt that he was being--
getting it from Dad. It could be something like that, but,
you know, Oprah, not always.
Sometimes--and I think Deborah really hit the nail on the head.
She said that when it started off gradually
and then it got worse and worse, and a lot of times,
this can be pure boredom, habit and `what our family does.'
I've seen this so many times that one punches,
the other punches back,
then the little ones start doing it and it becomes a
family way of handling problems.
But my other concern is what's happening is that
it sounds like you yell, you nag, you plead.
When you go over the edge, you'll take them to the
police station maybe, but nothing really is being done.
They might not be being listened to, OK, as to what their concern is.
They may feel that they have nobody to go to.
You're not going to do anything except say,
`Fight it out, deal with it, don't fight, leave each other alone.'
WINFREY: OK.
Dr. BANKS: And after a while, they get numb.
You don't even hear it anymore.
PETERS: It's--it's all--I think this--I have a feeling
in this family, that this is the family
dance and that you're yelling, too.
Ms. PFEIFFER: I am. I have to yell over their yelling.
Dr. PETERS: And--right. And so--and probably the rule in
your family is if you want to be heard, you have to yell louder.
Is that your rule?
WINFREY: What about what Jake said?
That he said that he feels that
it's because he is the middle child?
I mean, ju--he seems to me to have some real s...
Dr. PFEIFFER: Pretty much.
Dr. PETERS: OK.
PETERS: I think Jake has some real issues with this.
And it sounds like--Jake, do you feel that sometimes
no matter what you do, Robert gets more,
gets to do more, he's more important?
Anybody, s--your little sister, Michelle, she gets more,
and that no matter what you do,
it's not going to work?
Do you feel that way?
JACOB: Yeah.
Dr. PETERS: And then can--when you tell Mom that--
first of all, do you tell her or Dad that?
JACOB: Yeah, I tell them all the time.
Dr. PETERS: You tell them. And how do they react? What do they say?
JACOB: They're, like, `Oh, no, no, you--you get it eventually.'
Dr. PETERS: OK. So they'll say,
`Yeah, it evens out.'
But nobody is really ever agreeing with you and saying,
`You feel that it's not fair.'
Do your parents ever say that to you,
`You feel that it's not fair'?
PFEIFFER: No.
Dr. PETERS: No. They're--so they're not really saying
that your feelings are validated...
JACOB: No.
WINFREY: Validated.
Dr. PETERS: ...or normal or that it's OK to feel that way?
They're not telling you that.
Well, I want to tell you, Jake, that it is OK to feel that way.
Ms. BANKS: That's one thing that I learned a lot from my brother,
and I didn't see it then, but it taught me to deal with what
I had no choice but to deal with.
He was in front of me and I had to find a way to deal with it.
And I found ways.
I would read, I would--you know, I made f--I would
cherish my time outside of the house because that's all I--
the only peace that I had, you know?
Dr. BANKS: It taught me to be stronger.
Dr. PETERS: OK. It taught you to be stronger in a way.
Ms. PETERS: Right.
Ms. BANKS: But what we used to do in our home was we would
have these family meetings...
Dr. PETERS: Right.
Mr. BANKS: ...where we had the floor, and my brother couldn't say anything,
my stepdad couldn't say anything,
or if we did it with my real father, my real father
couldn't say anything, and I had the floor and I could voice
everything that was hurting me.
Dr. PETERS: And were your perceptions validated?
In other words, `You have the right to feel like you feel'?
Ms. BANKS: Yes. Now my mom still thought I was whining...
Dr. PETERS: Now it may not be true. Right.
Ms. BANKS: ...but at the same time I still felt
like I could express myself, you know,
and that it may not have helped much but...
WINFREY: He obviously--he obviously isn't getting heard.
Ms. PFEIFFER: Yeah.
Dr. PETERS: No, I don't think any of them are getting heard
because their way of getting...
WINFREY: Yeah.
Dr. PETERS: ...heard is screaming and hitting.
So I think what you have to do is we have to find a way,
and I've got a good way for you to stop--to stop the fighting,
then you have to learn yourself how to communicate with the kids
and teach these kids to communicate civilly and politely and decently.
And it's not that hard to do, Deborah. It really isn't.
WINFREY: Well--all right. We'll see.
And--and, Jake, Michelle is always going to have more shoes than you.
She's always...
Ms. PFEIFFER: Well, we'll try anything.
PFEIFFER: It's true.
WINFREY: And then when you grow up and you have girlfriends,
they're going to have more shoes than you, and your wife's going
to have more sh--there will always be more shoes
in her closet than there are in yours.