well boris johnson tomorrow will publish
his judgment
into the conduct of pretty patel after
the fact-finding report by
the cabinet office and a subsequent
assessment by sir alex allen who is the
prime minister's advisor
on ministers interests and the bbc as
you were saying has been told that sir
alex says
that the home secretary had not met the
requirements of the ministerial code
to treat civil servants with
consideration and respect
he also suggests that there may have
been an unintentional breach of the
ministerial code by pretty patel now
here is a key passage by sir alex allen
he says her behavior may not have been
undone
intentionally to cause upset but that
has been the effect
on some individuals now if we want to
know which way
uh boris johnson will jump tomorrow on
the future of pretty patel
we should probably look at what he had
to say after
sir philip rutman resigned as home
office permanent secretary
back in february when he talked about a
culture of fear
in the home office the home secretary is
doing an outstanding job i have every
i have every confidence in her if if
there are allegations of course it is
right that they should be properly
investigated
by the cabinet office and that is what
is happening
now obviously it was sir phillips a
statement and his resignation that
prompted this
inquiry and he raised questions about
pretty patel's
conduct now interestingly in his
assessment sir alec allen says
the civil service needs to reflect on
its role
so he says that the home office had not
been as
flexible as it could have been in
response to the home secretary's
requests and directions and he says she
has legitimately not always felt
supported
by the department and then he says this
no feedback was given to the home
secretary
of the impact of her behavior which
meant that she was
unaware of issues that she could
otherwise have addressed
the home secretary has also become
justifiably in
many instances he said frustrated by the
home office's leadership's
lack of responsiveness and the lack of
support she felt in the department for
international development
three years ago and there's a strong
view amongst allies of the home
secretary
that it's the civil service that should
be apologising to her
tomorrow why is it all happening now
well for months number 10 has been
saying that this report in this process
has been
ongoing and this this week lord sedwill
who's the former
cabinet secretary he said that the
findings are now with the prime minister
so what that meant
is it had come almost to the final stage
of what is a three-stage
process so stage one is there's that
fact-finding
mission by the cabinet office stage two
is the prime minister
consults sir alex allen and then stage
three tomorrow the prime minister comes
to a view now i
understand that there has been an
absolutely almighty standoff
between number 10 and senior civil
servants
because they felt that this report
raised very serious questions
about her behavior behavior which they
say really has
no place in the modern workplace pretty
patel says oh no no
this raises big questions about the
behavior of
senior civil servants i do have to say i
detect no
pressure on the tory back benches for
pretty patel
to go the sort of words i'm hearing is
why remove
a robust home secretary at a time like
this nick thanks very much
indeed well now to discuss this further
i'm joined in the studio by dave
penman of the fda a union which
represents civil servants senior civil
servants
from south london by the garden mp and
we will come to her in a moment
but first of all let's talk also to
deanna
davidson who is representing the south
london
constituency and home affairs and from
halifax by labour's shadow minister of
immigration
holly lynch let's come to you first of
all dave penman what do you make of
unintentional bullying
um well it seems like the the prime
minister's now decided that despite what
it says in the ministerial code
bullying is okay as long as it's in a
limited and specific way
if a fifth is true that the report has
found
that she has breached the the
ministerial code then the president is
quite clear the last time she brought
the ministerial code it seems
extraordinary even saying that
although it wasn't about bullying she
she recognized that she had to resign
so it would appear that that there's a
there's one rule when it comes to
consulting foreign countries on foreign
policies i know when it comes to
bullying civil servants but does this
chime with what your members are telling
you
well i think sir philip in his
resignation speech
at live on air indicated that he had
raised concerns
about the behavior of the home secretary
and it was raising those concerns
that actually caused the briefing
against the philippine cause
ultimately his resignation so it seems
rather extraordinary for
to hear the report talking about this
all came as a surprise to the home
secretary but
um we've spoken to a civil servant who
really enjoyed working with her and you
also heard from nick walt there
in the report there was frustration with
civil servants working in the home
office
but frustration around performance of
individuals is very different from
bullying
anyone in a workplace can know that they
have to deal with colleagues
who you may be frustrated about there
may be issues legitimate issues and
concerns raised
that's very different from bullying and
intimidating behavior and if the report
has found
that she breached the ministerial code
what is the message from the prime
minister
about ministers who do this this would
only be civil servants can challenge
ministerial behavior deanna davidson you
know pretty patel
is she a workplace bully well i should
just start closely by saying my
constituency is the northeast not in
south london
um but you know my experience of uh
knowing pretty since i got elected back
in december
is of someone who is incredibly kind
incredibly courteous
incredibly generous with her time you
know i've lost count now of the number
of times she's found time in her
incredibly hectic diary to sit down with
me
to talk about either constituency
matters or just to check up on how i'm
doing
offer advice of me being a new mp and
even to offer me some support when i was
getting an awful lot of abuse on social
media which is something that i know
she's had to deal with in the past
but you're not working for her
civil servants work for her is it
possible that she could be an
unintentional bully well i'm not going
to
speculate on that i think you know that
that just seems a ridiculous thing for
you to ask me to be honest kirsty
what when you worked with her though
what have you seen holly lynch
well i think these are incredibly
serious allegations that we're hearing
this evening
i think to be able to answer diana's
points i think it would help everybody
if the investigation was published
in full there would be those differences
in power dynamics between
diana and other conservative mps than
there would be between the home
secretary and her civil
servants we need to have this report
published in full
give it the transfer that is
yeah but this is not traditionally what
happens with these reports i mean you
you know it's a very tough job being a
minister you know you know because
you're at shadow immigration
you know that it's under a great deal of
pressure things have to get done
perhaps simply pretty patella is just
being a robust home secretary
these are incredibly high pressure jobs
but i think the civil servants are
looking for answers this evening that
they can have faith
in the processes that they are respected
and these are really serious allegations
that we're hearing
we do need some assurances that are
processes in place that any
allegations of bullying within the civil
service in any workplace are taken
incredibly
seriously but i also think there are
questions for the prime minister to
answer about
his judgment in this we understand that
he's had this investigation this report
on his desk since the summer so why the
delay
unfortunately smacks as a hallmarks of a
cover-up
we need to see this investigation in
full and only then will we have
confidence
and that that all of the right questions
have been asked
diana davidson what do you make of that
well i think you know calling this a
cover-up is absolute nonsense
you said the prime minister is going to
be publishing that report tomorrow
but what we need to remember is this
investigation started in february
what has happened since february is that
we've been hit with a global pandemic
it has been all hands on deck to try and
tackle that to try and protect
lives to keep people safe to keep our
economy and our society moving
so it's no wonder that something you
know along these lines has been delayed
more so than anyone would have liked it
to have been
because the government has been a little
bit preoccupied in governing something
that's
almost uncomfortable to be fair the
business of government has to go on
pandemic or not
and we understand this report was ready
months ago
well as i said if it's going to be
published tomorrow we'll wait and see
what the report says
well it's not going to be published but
dave penman um we know that the
government wants to shake up the civil
service that was in its manifesto
and actually in the report pretty patel
herself
apparently in the report it says that
she has faced
challenging behavior well if that's the
case in
in the civil service then there are ways
for ministers to to deal with that
this isn't about nothing it really it
doesn't help a discussion about
workplace behavior when we talk about
challenging
uh issues like performance because there
are ways in means of doing that
bullying is a form of abuse of power
there's a very different relationship
between a backbench mp
and a minister and a civil servant it's
tough working in government for
ministers it's also tough working in
government for civil servants did you
accept that perhaps
some civil servants do produce
challenging behavior of course
every workplace has that and so do
ministers is there is a question of
interpretation isn't it
because what is challenging and what is
bullying that is a question of
interpretation and that we made question
of interpretation on both sides
of course and what's quite clear is the
ministerial code and the process we've
got just now is not an appropriate way
for dealing with us
nine months on the the report won't be
published
at the you heard from the extract
earlier on the prime minister
when this report this investigation was
launched pledged his allegiance
to pretty patel and yet he's the only
one who's the arbiter of this
he did pledge his allegiance to pretty
potential but he said he would wait to
see how the allegations panned out to be
absolutely clear
there was about nine months later with a
report sitting on his desk
for three months uh with a report that
it would appear to say that she has
breached the ministerial code and yet
potentially no sanction
what does he think civil servants are
going to think about this
about this process and he's minister for
the civil service as well
uh let's just ask uh one question about
this delay though because we're in a
situation now diana where
we have this report we won't be
published we're going to hear
from what the prime minister says
tomorrow and
we are no further forward as to actually
what's going to happen
to pretty patel tonight we don't know if
she's going to be reprimanded we don't
know if she's going to be entirely
exonerated by the prime minister
it's damaging isn't it for the
government well i don't think it is
damaging at all we'll hear from the
prime minister tomorrow
and the fact of the matter is you have
to look at what it is that the home
secretary is delivering in incredibly
tough circumstances
you know people in my constituency say
she's doing an absolutely exceptional
job
introducing measures to tackle crime
tough measures on immigration which
after all is what people voted for
back in december she's a tough woman
tackling a tough job and
she has my difficulty more broadly
though more broadly do you think
more broadly do you think that there
might indeed be the case that there is
a culture of bullying in the government
well you're asking me to speculate
kirsty i'm not going to speculate on a
report that we haven't seen yet
no i'm not actually talking about the
report i'm talking about more broadly
the atmosphere do you think that there
could be a culture of bullying
um i don't you don't dave penman
if tomorrow the judgment is made either
to exonerate or indeed to censure but
certainly
not that pretty patel should lose her
job do you accept that this has to be
the end of it because that is indeed
what usually happens with these things
that a line is drawn under them
of course it's down to the prime
minister that's that's where the problem
lies with this
prime minister is always going to make a
political decision
on this that's always going to be the
issue he faces the pressure from the
back benches
nick talked about earlier on no appetite
to deal with us
that's not what this should be about it
should be about the facts that's why
we need an independent and transparent
process thank you all very much indeed