My guest tonight is an advocate
for survivors of sexual violence,
who founded the #MeToo movement over a decade ago.
Please welcome Tarana Burke.
-♪ ♪ -(cheering and applause)
(laughs)
Welcome to the show.
-Thank you. Thank you for having me. -So...
so honored to have you here.
Um, I was honored to be with you at the Time 100 Gala.
You were honored as one of Time 100's most influential people.
-Congratulations on that. It is well-deserved. -Thank you.
-(cheering and applause) -Uh... Yeah, yeah. -Thank you.
Because you have become so synonymous
with the #MeToo movement and this idea of justice,
we've just learned today that,
uh, a New York grand jury indicted Harvey Weinstein
-on two counts of rape and a single count -Yes.
-of criminal acts. -Yes.
If convicted, he faces up to 25 years in prison.
Is this something that brings you joy?
How do you react to a story when it culminates in this manner?
You know, it's-it's not... It doesn't bring me personal joy.
I don't... You know, this is not really what it's about.
And I-I've said this before-- this is not really a moment to,
like, celebrate how the mighty have fallen.
But it is cathartic for the survivors.
This is a moment for them to-to see a sense...
have a sense of relief, for some of them.
There are others who don't feel like it's justice.
-Right. -And there are others who feel a little bit tenuous,
because it's gonna mark the beginning of them having
to be dragged through a trial process, where his, you know...
his attorneys are gonna try their best to diminish them
and to... and to make them seem like they were complicit.
Right. And that's something, I think,
a lot of people forget about,
-uh, cases of sexual assault, uh, -Mm-hmm.
is that the women are at the beginning of their journey,
where now people will probe them,
-people will make them out to be liars. -That's right.
Uh, when you look at the #MeToo movement,
when-when you started your program,
what was your initial goal?
Our goal was, really, to work with, um, black and brown girls
in the South arou... who are survivors of sexual violence,
to speak healing into their lives,
to let them know that healing was possible
and let them know that they weren't alone.
And it just grew from there.
It grew from working with young girls to grown women.
We realized, "Oh, we're survivors of sexual violence,
so there's others like us."
And it... and it's really been focused on what survivors need
to start a healing process.
That's really what the heart of our movement has been about.
And also working to end sexual violence.
And if you... if you look at this world that we live in now,
the #MeToo movement has become synonymous
-with men being "brought down." -Right.
I often hear people say the phrase
"Oh, #MeToo claims another victim"
or "Another win for #MeToo."
Do you think that's the right way to frame it?
Do you think maybe people are missing the point
of what #MeToo is meant to inspire?
Absolutely. It feels like
-playing Whac-A-Mole after a while, right? -Right.
It's like, who's the next person #MeToo's gonna take down?
And that's not really our focus.
If, as a by-product of people coming forward
and telling their truth, then there's justice
that happens, there's some kind of retrib...
um, you know, resolution that happens from that...
-Right, right, right. -...then that's fine.
But our goal is really to support the survivors
and to make sure survivors are in a place of leadership
in the work to end sexual violence.
It's not about taking down powerful men.
And it's not a women's movement, either.
That's another sort of misconception.
It's a movement for survivors.
You made headlines recently when, um,
you were in Harlem, I believe, at a restaurant,
-and they were playing R. Kelly. -Yeah.
And you asked them to-to stop playing the R. Kelly song.
-Yeah. -And then you reached out,
you know, to prominent radio DJs and you said,
"Hey, help us. Help us to mute R. Kelly."
-Yeah. -That grew into a movement
which culminated in Spotify, for instance, saying,
"Hey, we're going to remove him from play lists, etcetera."
Could you explain the why in and around that?
Like, why was that so important to you?
If some people say, "But, oh, it's the music. It's not him,"
why was that so important to you?
Well, first, I didn't start the "Mute R. Kelly."
-So I want to be clear about that. -Right.
I've been... I have been talking about and speaking out
against R. Kelly, like a number of black women, for years.
Mute R. Kelly is a campaign that was started
by these two other black women that I vehement...
that I support really enthusiastically.
But the issue is not just about R. Kelly.
The way that he makes his money is through his music
and through performances.
If we continue to support him, he uses that money
to the detriment of these black and brown girls
that he's been preying on for 20 years, and it's...
So it's about making sure
he doesn't have the resources to do that,
but it's also because he symbolizes a greater thing.
There are R. Kellys in our neighborhoods,
in our communities, in our schools, in our churches.
He represents a thing that we can't touch, we can't stop.
-Right. -We cannot... we cannot get people to pay attention
to the plight of sexual violence against black and brown girls,
and our R. Kelly's a perfect example of it.
Do you think that if R. Kelly's victims were a different race,
there would have been a movement
that was far more powerful against him?
I think if R. Kelly's victims were white girls,
I think if they were black boys
that there would be a movement against him that would have...
that would have started and ended ten, 15, 20 years ago.
-Wow. -I think specifically
because it's black and brown girls that is has been slow,
because we think about black and brown girls differently.
It's interesting because I see these parallels
across many, many groups, you know.
There isn't one particular group where there is more preying
-or there is more sexual assault. -Right.
-It feels like you find this across cultures. -Mm-hmm.
But one thing I've come...
and you'll correct me if-if I'm... if I'm wrong...
I've come to find that predominantly
-in cultures of color... -Mm-hmm.
...there is an idea
-that we shouldn't speak about these things. -Absolutely.
I remember growing up, you know, if an uncle was accused
of abusing a young girl, then the girl would get into trouble.
-Mm-hmm. -How do you begin these conversations
in communities of color?
How do you get people on your side
and realize that the community has to work from the inside?
I feel like I've said this before.
We have to... we have to be able to hold two truths
at the same time-- or more than one truth.
Right? And... I speak about the black community specifically.
I think in the black community, we are so focused
on the fact that there is a true history
of black men being falsely accused
of rape and sexual violence in this country.
That's true. There's no question about it.
History, you know, supports that.
But it's also true that in every community
the people who commit sexual violence,
except for the native community,
by and large are from that community.
-Right. -And so if that's true
and we know that black women are sexually assaulted
and victims of sexual violence, then it happens by and large
at the hands of black men.
And so we have to unravel this idea
that we have to be silent to protect our men,
and we have to protect our community from this.
And we also have to dismantle these notions we have
about, um, womanhood and sexuality,
and, you know, that a girl develops
and she gets a body, and all of a sudden
she's solely responsible for protecting herself
-Right. Right. -from perpetrators.
Right? It becomes her fault that she develops breasts
and a behind and, you know, men find her attrac...
grown men find her attractive, and then we...
You know what happens in our community, I'm sure,
in African communities as well as in American communities--
you get these rules, right?
Don't sit on anybody's lap.
Don't let anybody touch your private parts.
All of the rules, all the onus is on the child.
But what we don't say very often is:
If those rules are broken, it's not your fault.
You're not the one responsible.
The adults are wholly responsible
for making sure that you're safe.
That's what we have to unpack.
We have to start unpacking those things in our community,
and having honest conversations, really.
It's not... you cannot put a song,
you cannot put a person's talent over somebody's humanity.
That's just... that's just insane.
Wow.
When we talk about the Me Too movement--
-Mm-hmm. -I'm always intrigued
by that word "movement" at the end of it--
where do you believe we are moving towards?
Where would you like to see the country
and people in different communities move towards?
I know that you have a few projects that you're working on.
Yeah, I mean, one of... because Me Too went viral online
and, you know, via Twitter and Facebook and social media,
I think it's important for us to have an online platform
for people to get resources.
And so one of the things we're building
is this online platform that will be able to provide
survivors of sexual violence and their allies with resources.
So it's like trying to figure out
what healing could look like for them.
-Right. -But it's also to activate people, right?
The thing that people forget is that we are
millions and millions strong across the world.
That is a power base.
And so we also want to provide tools
for people to get active in their communities,
because we have the power to interrupt sexual violence.
So when I think of "movement,"
I think of moving towards a world where we can end,
or at least very much interrupt, sexual violence.
And that can happen and be driven by the survivors.
-There's so many of us. -Right.
You know? And so that's where we're moving towards.
We haven't seen a culture shift yet.
I think that we have seen a culture
starting to move in a different direction,
-Uh-huh. -but a true culture shift
won't happen until we are re-socialized
about how we think about sexual violence
and how we engage with each other
and how we talk to each other, how we take apart rape culture.
Like, those things have to happen,
and then we'll see a culture shift.
I can only say I'm proud to have sat with you,
and I think you're an amazing person
who's doing the most phenomenal job.
-Thank you. -I'm excited to see where the movement goes.
-Thank you so much for being on the show. -Thank you.
-Thank you so much. -Tarana Burke, everybody.