[Hassan Ilyas] Last week spoke to you in detail about a particular topic
and the subject was feminist movements
and what are the anxieties about this movement?
what are the possibilities?
With great detail you gave us your opinion
on that we received a feedback
many people appreciated it
but some critical aspects also came forward
and they are
that the movement of feminism which has started
injustice with women
oppression, coercion
violence, exploitation
by raising voice against these traditions
women are not given their share in property, inheritance
domestic violence
the way in which
if you look at the institutions
conducive environment is not provided to them
at their workspaces
Parliamentary rule has recently come
it has been a while since the right to vote was granted
Women were deprived of the fundamental human rights
You made a comparison of their movement
fascism
or socialism
or communism
and with their movements
This is a movement for rights
The injustice that they face
We talked very little about it
and we analysed more about the isms
what will you say about this?
[Ghamidi] I did not compare it with any of them
The thing that I drew attention to with great respect was this
that the objectives may be very good
The matter is also of very serious concern
but the moment when we make it into an ism
then it leads to some problems
that is, the comparison in actual
was about the tendency to form isms
then whether it is made for a social purpose
or it is made for a political purpose
or it is made with the aspect of rights
You can understand this with an example
that in our society
every person who is a scholar
whether he is working in science
or in some other discipline
or in the disciplines of Deen
he is working on the knowledge of Deen
if any one opinion is developed
and in that opinion,
there are difference with others too
when some great people
are born in a particular discipline or art
then naturally, many people start expressing their agreement with them
This leads to the birth of madaris e fikr or schools of thought
To this extent it is not a bad thing
but as soon as you give it a name of a group/sect
then its result is this
that a correct thing
or the right that you have to say a correct hing
its use
on the basis of its result
it becomes a basis of divisions
it gives birth to extremism
so I was drawing attention
that one should avoid extremism at all cost
and when does extremism take birth?
it is born the moment when man is oppressed
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] That is because
as soon as tyranny is wreaked upon you
or you will be oppressed
your rights will be trampled
if any step is done against your life, wealth and honor
then ultimately the adverse reaction will be precisely a consequence of this, right?
[Hassan] Yes
[Ghamidi] That is, man,
it is obvious
that his life
his belongings
his honor
he is very sensitive about them
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] He wants to protect all these things
so when this would come under threat
or efforts would be made to crush them
then in its consequence
it will give rise to suffering
it will cause anger
a reactionary mindset will take birth
so upon that occasion
the good work that you are doing
if you will present it as an ism
then after some time
and they are not a great number of people
It is a few people who will become prominent
and then they will take that ism to an extreme
and when things in this manner
will reach an extreme
then its damages come forth
Its reason is this that
that although this thing looks very right
that for instance, I have my rights
they were violated
I'm facing some injustice
but it is not as if I am not alone in the world
that is, I am a social animal
The nature of the matter is not that
I'm living inside some jungle
I have to deal with other people
so rights necessarily give birth to rights of those in opposition
its inevitable consequence
there are some demands of justice
which themselves take birth in that society
so be it women
be it children
or be it men
whoever it might be
the moment when you
just like I gave the example of labourers
now could there be any doubt
that at the time
when in the West
socialist movements have started
or when the socialist ideology had risen up
or the historical factors behind them
they have been analysed
so how were the workers being treated?
that is, they were treated
as if they were not humans
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] They used to stand in queues outside factories
just like prices are fixed everyday in a farmer's market
and what happens there?
the interaction of demand and supply
there is supply and demand, right?
Suppose if the demand is high
then the price of potatoes would rise as a result
Same was the case with human beings they had no place to live
nor did they have any fixed time for work in it self this one thing was present
but when for its abolition
an ism took birth
then in that a lot of facts were neglected
so first thing you must understand that
this comparison was not with
fascism
or socialism
or with communism
but there was a comparison with the formation of isms
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] So anything that will turn into ism
just like I gave the example of religion
it would become a sect
so in actual what is its consequence?
that after this you
yourself start moving towards such an extremist objective
in which there is denial of others
one after another
an adverse reaction takes place
You make the effort to achieve one thing
and start neglecting ten other things
so I only drew attention to this thing
otherwise as far as this thing is concerned
that women have suffered injustice
there is no doubt in it at all
You can try reading the phillosphers
what all they have done!
or read the works of Socrates and Plato
from the last centuries
read the works of Nietzsche and others
and many other philosophers
and the philosophers of that age
when in a way renaissance movements were taking place
by reading some of their arguments
one gets to know
that women's existence is not at all tolerated
and if I read you some parts of it
then this is the reality
that you would not believe
that people of such status
view women in such a way
similarly, if you see in different countries
Today in those countries
where it is thought that most of the rights have been granted
There are westen countires
United States itself
Have you read the history
of how these rights were granted?
that is, when was the right to vote granted?
When was the right to to self determination granted.
When was the right to have a say in marriages granted.
In the same way
there are many such countless matters
in which this is a reality
that there has been a lot of injustice
There is no doubt about it at all
In our own society
the kind of perceptions that have been there
Usually you get to see that
and I have seen it already
that in the era of rural life
that is, a clear discrimination
in the attitude of mothers
in the attitude of fathers
in the family's attitude
used to be visible in the matter of sons and daughters
It was clearly observed
and to such an extent
that even in the serving of food
I have myself witnessed this discrimination
Now see who are the people who are dealing here
they are the mother and father
In that too I have observed it
In the same way
the person
that is, during playtime
while expressing their wishes
in any desire or aspiration
the way in which sometimes
someone says something
there when a son says
and when a daughter says
then what is the difference in the response to both
It has been a very grave scenario
there is no doubt in that
The religious conceptions
You would be aware that in our society
more or less this thing has been agreed upon
that is, for the first time
I was the one who did a critique of this agreement
and I have told that
this is an absolutely wrong interpretation of Quran-e-Majeed
but there has been more or less this consensus
that a woman's sphere is her home
that is, for that
the interpretations that have been devised
although they are very nice literary interpretations
that she should be the lamp of the house
and not the lamp of a gathering
and it was told
that what is her actual sphere of actions
she should remain at home
In Pakistan itself, if you see
there is Allama Iqbal
it is obvious
that he is very well educated
and an extraordinary personality
in fact he could be counted among one of the greatest thinkers we have had
but the thing that he is presenting as the ideal
is much the same as this
he also says that
batool-e basho pinha shau azeen asr
ki daara gosh shabir e bagiri
that is, even though I'm giving an example of a very illustrious personality
but the objective that the couplet wants to state
it is that
do not step out of the house
that if in your lap
you want to give to birth to remarkable progeny
so for this you will have to sit hidden from the world
now it is obvious that it has some implications, right?
its meaning is that it's not just the sphere of action
but if she wants to study
if she wants to acquire knowledge
If she wants to play a role in society in accordance with her abilities
then there is no scope for it
if you look at it from both angles
then more or less
this would be the impression received
that her work is either to satisfy a man's passion
or if after that in her lap
Allah ta'la has blessed her with children
then only their nurture
their education
only this is her life
and she should stay locked withing four walls
therefore, the religious books that have been written in the last century
if you read them
now I don't want to give a specific reference
but the books which have been popular
it's not that they haven't been written by an ordinary person
they have been written by illustrious scholars
within them
this has been told that
they have been taught to read it
okay, even so she is taught how to read
then she will be able to read the Quran or something
if she is taught how to write
then there could be only one consequence
that she will write letters to her lover
so this should not be taught at any cost
same was the case
with matters relating to marriage
her consent
that is, I have myself seen this during my childhood
that if at any place
through any gesture
if it came to knowledge
that the girl
has an inclination for her own marriage or engagement
so the condemnation was to such a level
that at present times
you cannot even imagine
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] That is, in the entire house
in the entire family
in the entire area
in the entire clan
what kind of situation would develop
How eyebrows were raised at her?
All of this I have witnessed
Okay, then the kind of environment that was created for her
She wasn't supposed to get any education
She wasn't supposed to get any instruction
She doesn't have any dealings with the world
Where is the world heading?
There is no looking at those affairs
The world that was made for her inside the home
within that there were quarrels of the mother-in-law, the daughter-in-law
and stuck between them an individual being
although that happens with a lot of menfolk too
that is another story
but women always used to become the target
It was in itself an entire world of oppression
and there are some things of that world
that this is a reality
now that I look back upon that time
when I recall some incidences
then I'm absolutely left awestruck
[Hassan] Miserable conditions
[Ghamidi] This point that she would get beaten up by husband
this was considered to be ordinary in our villages
That she had to become the target of profanity
of the entire family
elders, old people and others
if they have to address her
then they will address in the same manner
It is not that there weren't exceptions to this
that is, there used to be
but the general attitude
more or less was the same
so you can see that
a person with respect to their personality
the biggest thing that they will expect form you
will be that of freedom of expression
freedom of thought
freedom to get education
to be able to make the big decision of one's life
that I have to
choose my life partner
or in order to start a family
if I have to select a person
then who should that person be?
In the same way
if within me there is any skill
and Allah ta'la has blessed
me with a special knowledge
or interest or talent within me
then what can I do to perfect that skill or talent?
These are the major issues, right?
Out of these,
there was no freedom for any of them
that is, if you pick any one of them
this was the condition
so there is no doubt in this
and with great respect I would like to say this
that it can be that some people might find my talk unsuitable
If they pay close attention
then from the religious point of view
all these kind of things about women
out of them if any person has in the past thirty or forty years
with great clarity
stated the religious point of view
and has played any role in transforming the perceptions of people
then it is this humble servant
therefore, it is not like that
I said anything of that sort
I only tried telling this
that all of these things are right
they must be seriously redressed
if rights are being violated
then they should be granted certainly
I too have to raise my voice for it
as well as you
but this should come forward with that balance and moderation
so that it does not create a reactionary mindset
a reactionary mindset does not arise from this aspect
that what others will do?
okay, you can kill and maim them
leave them
the actual thing is that your own speech
your own slogans
your own talks
your own arguments
you aren't able to create a balance in them
when you try to make it into an ism
then absolutely the same mindset takes birth
which takes birth in religious people after forming a sect
now if you look at the very foundation of a sect
then tell me what is the problem?
that is great people will be born
people will get influenced by them
there will be familiarity with different thoughts and theories
and with other persons as well
in that a school of thought will come into existence
These madarisa e fikr
or these school of thoughts
are they not there in philosophy?
are they not there in science?
Are they not there in politics?
Are they not there in other disciplines?
they are everywhere
but the moment when
some extremist conceptions are associated with them
then this is called a sect
and when this sectarianism takes birth
then it is a person's right that he state his opinion
it is his right that he can disagree
that is, all those rights
take on such a form
that every person seeks refuge
that from this sectarianism
the people, the nation
and our ummat must be ridden of it
so I drew this to attention
that if our sisters want to struggle for this
if our daughters want to struggle for this
or others, if they want to
then they must try not to make it into an ism
instead they should give birth to an understanding for rights
they must work in a knowledgeable manner
and they must adopt that method
which I have
from my side
had tried to point towards
that you must ascertain
that what are those things
which in actual
are becoming the basis for the violation of their rights
If they are religious things
then on them
serious
dignified
in a civilized manner
they must be worked upon
their reality must be made clear
all those perceptions
the wrong perceptions that have been established
they must be abolished
and if the faults are not being understood by the people
then they must be clarified with arguments
In the same way
the societal traditions that are there
the customs that get established in society
they must be made the target of critique
and out of them
each and every thing must be pointed out
where imbalanced views has been adopted
in the same way
the laws that are present somewhere
in any society
it is obvious that
for enacting laws effort is required in the sphere of politics
that must be ascertained
it must be studied
that at present in Pakistan's penal code
or in another country's legal framework
at what places has there been
such kind of injustice?
what more changes are required?
if there is the need to formulate more laws?
so these are different fields
that is the field of knowledge
the societal field
and the field of politics
by assigning them separately
they must be worked upon
and for this work
that one technical term
which has in our society
now become common
and which has been accepted at scholarly level
and which now as a technical term
in the many constitutions
different constitutions that are made
it has been made a part of them
it is the fundamental rights of human beings
so you must say
that the fundamental rights of women which are there
which they already have by virtue of their status as human beings
or those which need to be attained
We are fighting for them
so this is a great field of human rights itself
in which work can be done separately as well
the moment you will make it an ism
then I have merely drawn attention to the danger in that
And I had said that
at present when we study the history of the past two hundred years
then wherever a thing has become an ism
it has had the same consequences
[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Saab
You gave us a very detailed explanation
and it is the factual state too
we see it in our nation too
where on one hand, women are taking out rallies for safeguarding their rights
on the other hand
women themselves
against those women are taking out rallies
that your point of view
it is some special agenda
or it has risen from western thought
it should be made into a universalist slogan