My guest tonight
is a senior editor at National Review,
an L.A. Times columnist,
American Enterprise Institute scholar,
and best-selling author, whose latest book is called
Suicide of the West: How the Rebirth of Tribalism,
Populism, Nationalism, and Identity Politics
is Destroying American Democracy.
Please welcome Jonah Goldberg.
(cheering and applause)
I thought about pawing you up,
sort of a Macron versus Trump kind of thing
-and getting all handsy, -(laughs)
-but I decided better not. -We should have done that.
We should have done, like, a little handshake into a kiss
into, like, a little moment into a thing.
Yeah, and I could have, like, whispered, "I like your musk,"
which is what I think he was saying to him at one point.
-It felt like it. It felt like it. -Yeah.
Trump-Trump's really into him,
which is something that is good for America, yes?
Yeah. Uh...
I-It d... Maybe.
You know, it... If...
It's good for Amer-- for us to get along
with, you know, our 200-year-old allies.
-That's good, right? -Right, right, right. Uh-huh.
But if he's only doing it because somebody
is sucking up to him, less good.
Right? I mean, it should be they're getting along
because we have mutual interests,
-we have mutual values, -Right, right.
and they reflect that.
It shouldn't be because...
uh, the leader of France says,
"Not only are you a handsome man,
you're a powerful man."
Right? I mean, it shouldn't just be sucking up.
-All right. -It should be something more.
I feel like it should just be that. Yeah.
(both laugh)
-Welcome to the show. -Great to be here.
-Thanks for having me. -Thank you for coming through.
And, uh, you have written quite a book here.
Suicide of the West.
If ever there's a title that would catch you, it's that.
Why the title of the book?
Um, well, in-in part because...
I didn't say the death of the west
or the decline of the west.
Uh, as grim as the title sounds--
and it actually doesn't end as grim as it sounds--
uh, suicide's a choice.
-Right. -You choose to do...
um, to make these decisions that you're making,
and, um, I think that one of the things
that people don't appreciate is that if you...
you can choose not to do them, as well,
and that a lot of the things that are-are...
plaguing this country are within our own power to fix.
Right. It's interesting, 'cause you talk
about nationalism, tribalism, populism,
all of these things that you believe
are leading to the decline of-of America.
When you talk about the decline of America,
are you specifically referring to capitalism
and the way it's made America thrive
-over the past 300 years? -In part.
I mean, I call this thing the miracle, right?
But the miracle isn't just capitalism.
It's also, uh, natural rights,
um, civil rights,
uh, free speech--
all of the things that we associate
with the Bill of Rights.
The idea that the individual is sovereign.
That we're captains of ourselves.
That we are citizens, not subjects.
That the government works for us,
we don't work for a government.
These are all unbelievably new ideas
in the history of humanity.
-Right. -Humanity split off from the Neanderthals,
like, 300,000 years ago,
and for most of humanity's existence,
we were poor, ignorant, bloody,
violent creatures, right?
And, um, and our human nature hasn't changed.
We're still the same creatures
-we were 10,000 years ago. -Right.
What has changed are our values,
our norms, our institutions.
And if you don't have gratitude for them,
and if you don't try to protect them,
they'll go away.
-And... -It's interesting that you say that, though.
You go, "If we don't have gratitude for them,
if we don't try to protect them."
Because that seems like an argument
many people in America will use for one group or another.
-Mm-hmm. -What's interesting in this book
is you refer to both sides of the political spectrum
doing similar damage
or an idea that may cause damage to that idea in the same way.
So, for instance, you write for National Review
-as a conservative writer, -Right.
but at the same time, you are not a fan of Trump.
-I think that's fair. Yes. -Right. So, you are saying
that populism, both on Trump's side and on the left,
are-are... there's a danger of that hurting
-America's capitalism? How? -That's right. But, look,
there-there's nothing wrong with a little populism. Right?
Um, there's nothing wrong with a little nationalism.
It's like a pinch of salt brings out the flavor in the meal.
-Right. -Too much ruins the meal.
-And way too much is literally poisonous, right? -Right.
And so all poisons are determined by the dosage.
Um, you know, my-my favorite New Yorker cartoon,
which my wife got blown up for me a few years ago and framed,
has two dogs drinking martinis at a bar.
One dog says to the other, "You know,
"it's not good enough that dogs succeed.
-Cats must also fail." Right? -(laughter)
And that's sort of where we are as a culture right now,
-where it's not, you know... And I... -Right.
This drives me crazy about my own side these days,
where I-I talk to young conservative activists,
college students, and I say,
"Look, by all means, fight political correctness,
-"if that's what you want to do. -Right.
"But just because being rude is politically incorrect
doesn't mean being rude is good."
And so much of what's happening, I think,
on both sides of the political aisle,
is this-this idea that you can do almost any horrible thing
-if it annoys the right people. -Right.
And that's a huge part of the defense of Donald Trump,
which I just find intellectually bankrupt,
which is, "Well, he's got the right enemies"
or, um, "He's making the right people upset."
Well, you have to look
at what-what is actually upsetting them.
-Right. -And some of the things that upset,
you know, liberalists and leftists I can agree with
and I... you know, I'll support.
But some of the other things are just sort of crassness,
rudeness for its own sake.
And I don't see why I should defend that
just because he's on my "team," as it were.
It's interesting that you bring up teams,
because it does feel like America is drifting
into a space where politics is solely about teams.
You pick your team. Whatever your team does, you defend.
So, the other team, whatever they do,
you pick the opposite, you know?
The ref is biased. This is against us.
Those are not facts, because they don't work in our favor.
Does this, in your opinion, lead to a place
where the experiment of America begins to decline?
Is-is that the only thing that's kept it moving?
Or has it just been an illusion that's lasted for 300 years
because there were people who were previously oppressed
and that wasn't something that America ever was?
No. Look, I mean, look... Are... Have...
Are there bad things in American history that we need
to atone for, that we need to fix?
Do we have problems today that we need to still work on?
Absolutely.
My point is is that, um,
again, human nature has no history.
-Human nature is a constant. -Right.
We have the s... If you took a kid from, uh,
New Rochelle and you sent 'em back to a Viking village
to be raised by Vikings a thousand years ago,
-he would end up going pillaging the English countryside. -Right.
You take a Viking baby and you bring it to New Rochelle,
it's gonna grow up to be an orthodontist. Right?
-And... -A very big orthodontist.
-But yeah, yeah. -Yeah. And so, uh,
-these challenges exist in every generation. -Uh-huh.
Um, it is human nature to want to be part of your tribe.
We are hardwired to be part of a group.
That's how we evolve, is to say,
"I will do everything to help..."
And Darwin writes about this. "I will do everything to help
-"my team, my friends, my kin, my family, -Right.
"my allies, my coalition.
-And the stranger is the enemy." -Right.
And what it... You know, and so people, you know...
There's a common cliché that says
people have to be taught to hate.
Um, no, they actually have to be taught not to hate.
That's what civilizations do,
is teach people to see...
And it starts with Christianity or Judaism.
You go way back in the religion department.
But the fundamental insight is that you need to teach people
that strangers have human dignity,
-that strangers are decent people, -Mm-hmm.
and just because you don't know them doesn't mean--
or-or don't agree with them--
it doesn't make them the enemy.
And I think we're falling down on that
in our politics, in our education.
And instead, we're telling people,
"Just go with your feelings.
Your rage is more important than facts or argument."
-Right. -And that's where you get populism.
That's where you get a lot of nationalism, too.
But if you... if you have somebody
-who is trying to end you... -Mm-hmm.
...how do you then work on responding to that?
Because that's something that I'm always...
trying to figure out in my head is...
It's one thing for people to say,
-"Let's keep politics, uh... civil." -Sure.
"Let's not have an argument.
Let's not point each other out as enemies, etcetera."
But there are times when...
-Let's say Charlottesville is a good example. -Sure.
There are people who are literally saying,
-"We are Nazis." -Yeah, yeah.
These people are wishing for the end of other human beings.
It's a bit difficult at that point to say,
"Yes, yes, but let us, uh...
let us sit with them and engage as they drive over us."
-I... -It's a very difficult space to be in.
Oh, I agree with you, and look.
Look, my last name's "Goldberg."
I'm not really a turn-the-other-cheek guy.
I'm more of a smiting and wrath guy,
so I... I get what you're talking about, but...
-Right. -But my point is...
And I agree with you entirely about the neo-Nazis.
One of the things that infuriates me
about what Steve Bannon and some of the people around Trump did,
um, was claim that somehow
-a bunch of friggin' Nazis... -Right.
...were part of our coalition.
And I would keep trying to explain to these people,
"No, you don't understand.
"They literally say that they want to get rid of people
-like me, people like you." -Right.
"Why-why should I form a common,
"you know, group with them just go get this guy elected,
or just for political purpose or whatever?"
Some things are existential questions.
And I'm not saying that we should have gone
into Charlottesville and shot a bunch of Nazis, right?
-Uh-huh. -But the idea that somehow, um,
they have something important to say
that I need to find common ground with them,
-I-I think is ridiculous. -Right.
I also think it's ridiculous to call people who aren't Nazis
-"Nazis" as a way to demonize them. -Right.
And I think there's a lot of that that's going on, too.
And so, it's a prudential question,
and you have to sort of figure it out as you go.
It doesn't mean you can't have big arguments.
I've always believed that democracy is about disagreement,
not about agreement.
It's about having arguments.
What I don't like about our politics right now is
how people don't think arguments matter at all.
That facts don't matter, that, um...
You know, the whole point of the Enlightenment was this idea
-that you could persuade people. -Right.
And part of the reason I wrote this book is,
it's as much a cautionary tale to my allies on the right,
is that a lot of people are just giving up on persuasion,
and instead, it's just hammer and tongs,
cats must fail.
-It's all about power. -Mm-hmm.
The arguments in defense of Donald Trump in the...
in 2016 were all about winning and strength.
Winning and strength are not...
They're absolutely amoral concepts.
Winning for what? Strength for what?
-Unity for what? -Right.
It has to be the ideas that underlie it,
and we're in a moment
where a lot of people just don't care about ideas anymore.
One of the big ideas that you share in the book
is that America needs to focus on less identity politics,
-on both sides... -Mm-hmm.
...and more on merit,
because merit is how capitalism thrives.
Merit is what moves a society forward.
When you say that, though,
do you think sometimes
a statement like that ignores the fact
that some people's merit is overlooked...
-Absolutely. -...because of identity politics?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, look. Uh, look.
You know, it's funny.
Like, most of the liberals I talk to--
they-they like the words "pop..."
They agree with me on the populism and nationalism,
and they don't like the... And the tribalism.
-They don't like the identity politics part, right? -Right.
I am not saying that you can't...
First of all, I'm not saying
that there isn't decimation out there.
Obviously, there is.
What I'm saying is that one of the great and glorious things--
and Barack Obama was very eloquent about this--
um, about this country is... is not that America were...
the Founding Fathers were hypocrites
when they started this country. They were.
You know, slavery was a big, you know... It's a big...
You know, "Hey, what about that thing?"
-Right. -Right? Um, same...
That's a great description, "What about that?"
Yeah, but you know what I'm getting at, right? And so...
so what happens is, is then Abraham Lincoln comes along
with the Gettysburg Address, and he redefines
what this country's about-- about, you know, equality--
and then Martin Luther King says, "Hey, wait a second,"
a hundred years later he says, "Wait a second,
"the Founding Fathers wrote a promissory note
"to the American people that all men,
including black men, are created equal."
It's the unfolding of that story that... that is what matters.
And so one of the core values-- all civilization is,
is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves.
And one of the reasons why Martin Luther King
was so persuasive is he was appealing to the best ideals
of white America, and saying:
you should take people as you find them.
One of the great things about the American founding,
which doesn't get taught anymore,
is that we got rid of titles of nobility.
We got rid of-of the notion that simply by an accident of birth,
one person is better than another person.
And so a little identity politics,
just like a little nationalism, in terms of ethnic pride
and solidarity, all of that is fine.
When you start reducing whole categories of people
to an abstraction, and say, "All I need to know about you
-is the color of your skin," -Right.
that's when you get into a problem.
And this idea that all white people are racist
is... is-is, first of all, not true.
You know, intermarriage rates between whites and blacks
are going through the roof-- they can't all be racist, right?
But I think the argument is less "all white people are racist,"
and the system has been created by white people
to oppress people of color.
So I think when people say white people are racist,
I think that's disingenuous.
But most of the time the argument people are saying is:
Hey, we can admit that this system
from the Founding Fathers through to redlining
through to segregation was written in such a way
that it would benefit one race over another.
It would hamper the cats and allow the dogs to succeed.
A-And look,
I think there's obviously a lot of truth to that.
Um, at the same time, the definition
of who counts as white changed over time.
-You look at the Benjamin... -Right. But changed for everyone
-except black people. -That's... and that's true, too.
-And that's part of my point, is that... -(applause)
it is an outrage that this country took so long
to include everybody in this idea of universal equality.
That is not an argument for getting rid of the value
-of universal equality. -Right.
Right? It is... it is to say
that we need to be more consistent
in applying these ideals rather than saying
these ideals themselves are bankrupt.
Because it is these ideals...
Look, for all of human history, the average human being
everywhere on Earth lived on average of three dollars a day.
Africa, Asia, Europe, everywhere.
And then once and only once in all of human history,
it starts to go like this.
And it's because these ideas start getting put into action.
I think we should be... You know, we live in this moment
the greatest alleviation of material poverty
in all of human history.
Hundreds of millions of people in Asia and Africa
are coming out of poverty.
And it's not because of U.N. programs.
They help. It's because of these ideas
starting to germinate, lifting people up.
Maybe have just a little gratitude for them.
And maybe have a little room to say, maybe the entire story
of this 300-year miracle isn't...
a story purely of oppression and tyranny.
Were we bad? Did bad things happen in the past?
Yes. Have things been getting better?
-Yes. You can say both things. -Right.
You can say both things.
Nuance. The way I like to think of it is this.
I go, uh, capitalism, in many ways,
should be like software on a phone.
It constantly needs to be updated.
And at some point it feels like the updating has stopped,
and people allow it to, you know,
stagnate in the way that it is.
And to your point of gratitude, before I let you go,
I think the one thing-- and I wonder
if you can maybe understand this--
is when people say you should be "grateful"
for what you have, do you not think that gratitude
is always relative to the bottom versus the top,
in where you are?
Because, to say to somebody-- and you hear this all the time--
-and I'm not saying you're saying it, -Sure, sure, sure.
politicians will say, "Oh, black people,
"you complain about America, go live in Afghanistan.
See what that's like."
See, but you're not living in Afghanistan.
If I'm in a Michelin Star restaurant,
and the food is not great,
you can't tell me to go to Arby's,
-because I complain. -Right.
I'm saying to you, "The food is not what it was promised
-Yeah, yeah. -in this restaurant.
So is it not difficult to say to people,
"have gratitude," when they are not living
in the promise of what the country is meant to be?
Yeah, no. I-I think that that's fair.
I think, at the same time-- I-I don't say that to people.
-Right? You know. And... -Right. No, no.
-Yeah. Yeah, yeah. -Really, not, honestly, I'm not saying you do.
And so, and so, I-- one of the first...
You-You-You're one of the good ones.
One of the things I-I-- one of the things--
And look, I mean, I've... I-I-I've taken slings
and arrows from lots of different directions,
including from a lot of friends and former friends,
-'cause of the positions I've taken. -Right, right.
Um, one of the things I would say
to people who make that argument,
-is "stop making that argument." -Right.
Right? You know, that's not how you should frame
this kind of thing.
What I would say is that, you know,
the pursuit of happiness is...
-it's not a guarantee. -Right.
You have the right to pursue it.
And one of the great things about freedom,
the miracle, liberal democratic capitalism,
whatever you want to call it,
is it gives more people the opportunity to pursue it.
Could that get better? Yeah.
But you can't look at any of the systems
we had prior to 300 years ago,
and I'm not sure you can look into most
of the sort of nationalist or socialist systems
-and say, "They're better at it." -Right.
And so, when people say
we fall short of ideals,
I say, well, of course.
That's why they call them ideals.
You're not supposed to be able to, like, live--
they're supposed to be a north star, you know.
They're the thing that your true north that you march towards,
and you can always get better at them.
My point is that we shouldn't throw them away,
because this is the only game in town
in terms of what has actually taken humanity
out of the muck of its natural environment.
-Capitalism is unnatural. -Mm-hmm.
-Democracy is unnatural. -Right.
If they were natural, you would think they would show up
a little earlier in the evolutionary record,
than about 299,000 years into our existence here.
And so maybe these are things that we should be
a little more protective of.
If a goose, if the golden goose came into your house
out of nowhere, and started--
you know, golden eggs don't sound modern anymore--
started squeezing out winning lottery tickets...
-Uh-huh. This is a weird analogy, but, yeah. -Right.
Yeah, but you would-- you're response to it
should be gratitude, not, like, "give me more,
you know, more lottery tickets than you can produce."
But that's what the story is about is,
it's not really so much about greed,
it's about ingratitude. It says...
I think, fundamentally, I understand what you're saying.
And I-- that's what I appreciate about the book is
-it makes me think. -Thank you.
It engages in ideas and, uh,
fundamentally, what the book is saying is
don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
That's right. That's right. And we can disagree
about the size of government and all these kinds of things,
but there's some fundamental things
that we should all be able to agree
have merit and are worth keeping.
You stopped the conversation.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
Thank you very much.
Suicide of the West is available now.