[interviewer] Was there a big coming out story for you?
[Grace] It wasn't big.
I was already out to like, my friends and parents in sixth form,
and I turned up on the first day
and moved into my flat and it was with five girls.
So we were all in the kitchen and it was like, Oh, where are you from?
Da da da.
Oh, have you got a boyfriend.
And I was like, No I’m gay.
I just did it on the first day, the first opportunity, I was just like I'm going to get out.
[interviewer] Yeah. And how was that perceived? [Grace] It was fine.
They were just like, oh yeah, my boyfriend's called Brad, I don’t know, da, da, da...
So that was fine. [interviewer] Oh okay.
[Grace] And then it kind of took me a little while to sort of find my people.
Like I had friends on my course, and I was friends with the girls I lived with.
But it wasn't until maybe a month, two weeks, three weeks in.
that I went to the first LGBT network social. [interviewer] oh okay....
and is that because you weren’t aware of it then
Or was it just like
I'll do that later.
[Grace] No, I was I was aware.
So, like, there are few people in my block who were like in the Facebook group.
So that's how I met one of my best friends, actually.
I messaged him like, are you going to the LGBT social on Friday?
And he was like, yeah, let's go together.
and we've been best friends ever since.
But that was then when I like - on that first night
out, kind of met a few different people and we really got on.
[interviewer] and, and it's all cross discipline and different...
[Grace] Yeah across different age groups, across different
degrees.
like there are a few international students as well.
So that's when I found like my core little group of friends
and we like spent the whole year hanging out and doing stuff together.
And then the international students left and like we kind of floated apart, but for that first
year
those were like my, my core people where I felt really comfortable.
[Myles] I'm very privileged in that my parents were fine and very accepting,
but I do have a lot of diverse history.
[Interviewer] Oh, okay.
[Myles] I come from an Indian family on my Dad's side,
and then my dad's mother is also Catholic.
[Interviewer] All right.
[Myles] So it's not very easy coming out as a Hindu and a Catholic, you know.
[Interviewer] But they were supportive?
[Myles] They were very supportive in the end,
which was the one thing we were worried about.
So my mum's sister is actually a lesbian.
[Interviewer] Oh, okay.
[Myles] Luckily, it's very much more accepted in my mum's side of the family.
But in terms of on my dad's side, like it was never really spoken about.
Like no one in our family was gay that we knew or LGBT
do you know what I mean? I don’t really like labels.
Like, I just think it should be like your either.
This is how I say it.
You're either fruity or you’re straight.
Yeah, I mean, like fruity just takes... a lot of people
like find it hard to come to terms with who they are.
Yeah, I think there’s less pressure on it and you’re just fruity
like people like
it's more fun and it's more playful and people are less judgmental
You just are who you are and I don't judge people for it.
So like I had a friend going through a very similar thing at a similar time.
And I think like it was very easy because we both did it together.
And like, he was a friend from school.
He was lovely.
We were like, egging each other on. Come on, let's do it, let’s do it
Let's finally do it.
D’you know what I mean, and I'm very open with my family.
Like, I'd tell them anything.
And to have that secret for 16 years.
Is very, like, tough.
A lot of times you think, wow, that person is good looking.
But then is it like they’re good looking
cuz’ you fancy them or is it good looking because you want to be them?
and as a kid,
I'm assuming everyone thought they wanted to be like that person.
[Rowan] In terms of like the LGBTQ+ community.
Everyone that I've met and come out to so far has been lovely.
[Interviewer] Yeah
And in doing so, you actually get quite a lot of people also coming out to you
But I've not had anything negative.
[Interviewer] Do you get a different...
different approach of the way you look
because you’ve got long hair, you know, kind of, yeah. Feminine. [Rowan] Yeah a lot of people do
assume that because I present more femininely that
I am just like, she/her.
[Interviewer] Does that make it different or easier? [Rowan] It makes it a little bit more difficult
Because people do you just assume
from the get go how you identify.
[Interviewer] And almost put you into a box, like visually.
[Rowan] Definitely.
And then
having to actually make that step to come out to people, it's
like if you don't do it the first time that you meet them,
it's then a little bit awkward doing it further on.
but it sort of just, has to happen
It doesn't bother me too much.
I know some people, it does bother a lot,
but it’s never something that’s upset me
[Interviewer] Yeah. Okay.
So you're obviously quite confident in who you are.
[Rowan] Yeah, I'm aware that I present more femininely, and I know that
because I'm non-binary.
I don't owe people. Androgyny.
Despite identifying, I suppose, in an androgynous way.
I was non-binary, so just using they/them for
a little over a year now.
I think that's about right.
Over the summer I met someone who uses it as it’s pronouns
and then since talking to them about their experiences and everything going on
with using that as a pronoun,
it's sort of I think it's stuck in my mind without me actually realising.
And then more recently I thought, why not try it?
See what it goes like.
I think people don't really want to bring it up
because it's a neo-pronoun and lesser known
people don't want to ask questions in case it comes across as the wrong way.
I wish people would ask more questions.
It's the fear of getting it wrong that people do tend to just
stick to using they/them because it's... that's already in your mind.
That’s easier to use, but I do wish people would just ask more questions
because every time I have a conversation like this, it's eye opening to me as well.
And it's important to other people do just learn how to
use those pronouns.
as well and people's experiences. I mean, it is still quite new to me.
It's not something that I've used a lot,
so I am sort of still getting used to other people referring to me by it.
But every time someone does, you get like a little bit
of a rush of like, it feels really nice that is has been used.
[James] What I wanted to do when I came to uni, I was like,
Look, I've got no sort of pretenses.
I've got no-one with sort of with any expectation.
So when I came to uni, I was like, Look, I'm not going to go into the closet
from the get go kind of thing.
I'm going to just be like, Yeah, I like guys kind of thing.
It was always going to be scary,
but it was sort of you kind of find your people at university.
and sort of,
I guess everyone from the LGBT community just kind of clusters together.
[Interviewer] Yeah, oh, that's, that's really good
that the university culture has allowed that
[James] What was weird though was going back home after that.
Because it was very much like you turn a switch back off.
[Interviewer] Did you notice a change or did family notice a change in you?
[James] I felt a change sort of, because you just kind of become sort ot...
not more secluded, but you just kind of you're not as
open and as expressive about your experiences
[Interviewer] And that's always different with family anyway, when you've been with your peers
and then you go back home.
[James] So it was a bit weird, even sort of most my friends at home still didn't know.
So when we were meeting up at Christmas, I was like,
I've got all these stories to tell of
what I’ve been up to but I've got like leave out certain sections cuz it’s like - uh oh...
I can’t tell them
You sort of get to a point where you can just feel
like you can drop in these comments where it's like,
Oh yeah, I got with a guy like that kind of thing.
And then they're like: ‘hang on a second...’
Basically I come from a Catholic family, lots of cousins, that kind of vibe.
And so I came out to my siblings first
Didn't help Mum and Dad sort of
I'm quite close with my siblings
When exam season hit
I got a text from my sister and she was like ‘by the way I accidentally told dad’
It was like the day of my first exam and I was like... It's such a crushing feeling
When you get that text - and it’s like...
Oh no.
So I sort of went back for the summer and still didn't tell Mum,
but I was in an awkward situation where it's like, okay, Dad knows
but mum doesn't.
And if it comes out that dad know and mum doesn't, that's going to cause problem
because she's going ‘oh no’
Like, does he not feel comfortable around me, that kind of thing.
[Interviewer] And then after that, how was your father?
[James] Yeah, he wasn't too bad actually.
He was pretty good about it.
He’s fairly chill about these kind of things.
I then later came out to mum and dad sort of, probably about, second year.
And it was still weird.
I don't know if you get it, but you know when you just can't say ‘oh mum and dad, I’m gay’.
It's always like a ‘I'm seeing someone...
...and his name is bla-de-bla’.
Doing a sport like American football.
Like I feel like I can kind of pass quite well as being straight.
So I sort of - it's the classic cliche of
like I don't bring it up in training.
Because it's not really relevant.
It doesn't have any impact on my ability to go and tackle someone.
So I just never mentioned that kind of thing,
but never said anything like, ‘Oh yeah, I've got girlfriend.’
or tried to hide it, but what that meant was that people didn't
realise that sometimes
when they would make a gay joke when they would make a comment or a joke,
they didn't realise that that was like not okay because they thought
that they could get away with it.
It got to a point where sort of I think there was
there was something said in the group chat, so in front of everyone
and I was like,
Look, I can either say nothing, do nothing about it,
or I can just say something to them privately.
Yeah, or I can say something in front of everyone.
But it was over Christmas holidays.
So I was just like, Right, let's bite the bullet.
Because if I say something now, hopefully it means that
these kind of things won't happen again.
It's not like I keep having these conversations.
So basically sent a note in the group chat like: ‘Look, guys, I'm gay...
this is not okay’ kind of thing
[Interviewer] Oh that’s very brave. [James] Which was quite scary...
[Interviewer] Very brave. [James] I’m not going to lie.
[James continues] But saying that I genuinely was not expecting the level of support that these guys gave
There were just so many people messaging me like
Hey, that's sort of like, that was really brave of you
like, good on your for saying something.
[Interviewer] Yeah. No definitely that is.
[James] So many people like hearting the message.
So it was it was really nice I wasn't expecting that level of
of kind of support because again...
While people have stereotypes about gay people...
I've also got these kind of misconceptions
about like how people are going to take it.
[Heather] When I came out, this is still like right in the midst of Covid...
So we were still working from home at this point.
And I remember like I had some Teams
meeting where I was like, hey guess who’s trans, it's me.
And then like the big thing
I remember is at the first meeting I had afterwards - still over Teams.
I tried to put some makeup on.
I've been doing a bit of makeup at the time, and I looked terrible and no one pointed out
but it just really affected my, like,
you know, previously I didn't care because I was presenting as male.
So I knew I looked bad, but I don’t care. But then trying
to, like, present the fem and then kind of failing was rough.
But over time I got a bit more confident with makeup
and by the end of lockdown I was like doing it more often.
And I was starting to wear some feminine clothing
But when we got back to the office a couple of years ago,
I didn't wear dresses because I was not confident.
I wore a blouse.
I like dark trousers because that was it was vaguely androgynous.
I was like, This is as much as I want to get away with
because I don't think I can get away with dresses.
It's only been about a year or so.
Well, I finally felt confident being like, Yeah, I don't look
perfect, but like my hair’s okay, my makeup's okay.
The hormones are kicking in a bit.
I'm going to do I'm going to dress and then just one day like last year,
I just did it. To be honest.
There's like another practical reason
why I wear dresses and that’s because I get misgendered less.
There was a time a few weeks ago where I was in a blouse.
and I was in the queue of getting coffee and then like some person
who works at the university was like, Oh, I'll just let this Sir in, you know, this guy in.
And I was like - okay.
It was nice afterwards because like my manager was there.
She was like, constantly referring to me as like ‘she’s in line’
And so it was very nice of her being so supportive
and she brought it up later in a meeting to make sure I was okay
[Interviewer] Oh, that’s really affirming that they’ve addressed that.
The thing you get used to is repeating your transition story over and over
You know, at the start I was like well...
I figured out
I was trans through such and such
But as you get to know people, I was like,
you know, you switch roles or you meet new people, like
you do kind of get like elevator pitch for like your transition
[Interviewer] Just going to say elevator pitch, that's great.
Heather] you do have like summarise everything down
because, you know, eventually it’s going to come up.
And you’ll be like yeah, I'm trans
I figured it out about four or five years ago, I came out at such and such a date
I started hormones at this date you know, I started wearing dresses, bla bla.
So you do have this kind of like
you eventually just introducing yourself to other people.
Like, for example, after I came out to my team,
I realised there were certain colleagues who didn't work in my team,
but I was like communicating with intermittently.
And at the start I would like send them an email, be like; hi, by the way, I'm trans.
Let me know if you have any questions.
And by the end of it they were like... about six months in...
Then I would have like important questions
with all the teams and I would just be like,
Hi such and such, A: I’m trans, hah.
B: important question, because I was just like, I don't have time to explain transitioning.
I need to ask you about this applicant. This is very important.
So that was something I had to consider, because they’d be like, who's Heather Nelson?
That sounds a lot like the other person.
So, you know, thankfully
none of them were weird about it, but we did have to consider it was like,
Oh yeah, this person knew me as my old self.
Well, as I say, I realised I was trans about four years ago.
Basically, I came out about two years ago, so
it hasn't been that long.
But before I realised I was trans,
which happened when I was Googling like, Hey, what, how,
how did trans people realise they were trans?
Just hoping to educate myself and then realising that,
Oh no, this is me, You know, I knew something was wrong.
You know, I knew I wasn't happy with myself,
but I didn't really understand what.
But at the same time, I think there's this assumption
where it's like all trans people know who they are from birth.
You know, they're always like, Oh, I played with dolls
when I was like, four. That never happened to me.
I think in retrospect, those things you look at yourself,
it's like, Oh yeah, I never liked sports.
I never you know, I always felt weirdly jealous, like,
you know, women in TV and in the playground.
And I never quite identified with this like male thing and in of themselves,
you know, you don't want to be like
like, boys do this. Girls do this.
Yeah, but, like, they kind of snowball together, and then you realise that, like,
Oh, yeah, like experimenting.
with female presentation...
Like ten years ago, it wasn't just some weird response to a negative event
it was like you trying to discover your transness, but you didn't understand it at the time.
And you didn't understand what, like gender dysphoria was
when you looked at yourself in the mirror.
You hated what you looked like.
Like that didn't mean you weren't trans.
That just meant you were experiencing gender dysphoria, which means, you are trans.
it's like you get jealous of, like the queer youth as well when I see like...
So it's like, yeah, I joined the university
and I'm transitioning already. It’s like, I hate you but also I’m happy for you
but I'm so jealous.
But if I’d come out of trans in like 2005, that would have been a terrible decision
because you saw reality shows at that time.
So there's been a lot of change.
And you know, while on the one hand I'm seethingly jealous all these students
who are able to present and be comfortable as who they are
I'm also very happy that change is happening.
[Interviewer] Yeah, and you're part of that change.
[Heather] Yeah - grand old elder queer at 29 years old, yeah.