- Hey everyone, it's Rowan.
I am here with Jessica.
I'm gonna leave, as always with these collab videos,
all the links in the description.
But the reason why I had Jessica on the channel
was because I have this new video series
that I'm starting which has to do with femininity
and femme identities and talking to various people
about them while they make me over
in their particular style.
- Yes.
- What would you say your style is?
- Well I had my style classified by Annie Elainey.
I wasn't aware of it beforehand,
but apparently it's called high femme.
- I mean I would agree with that.
That makes sense.
- I never heard of that term but then I heard it
and was like oh yeah.
- There it is.
- Yeah yeah.
- But like really specific.
Like you're high femme but then you have
a very specific vintage sense of style.
- Yeah, so it's like, it's vintage high femme.
I have this weird thing where I think
it's very feminine but I wouldn't say girly.
- So what we're gonna do is we're gonna talk about
this and your identity and all that kind of jazz
while you are doing my makeup.
So before we get started I'm gonna ask
one quick first question which is
when did you start to dress like this
or this being your style?
Was it always a thing?
- Everyone asks me this.
- Was it like well, two years ago I had this epiphany?
- Well I used to wear jeans and then I thought no.
I don't remember a start date.
I think I was always a bit of an oddball.
I was an eccentric dresser.
I'll say that.
I was always eccentric.
I very much remember wearing a twin set and pearls
when I was about--
- That's adorable.
- 15.
- Classic, of course.
- As you do.
I used to wear Alice in Wonderland dresses
when I was a child.
- Oh that's cute.
- That was my thing.
This is quite funny.
I don't pick an era.
People are like oh did you choose the 1950s?
I'm like no.
I just buy the things that I like
and that I think suit my body
and they just all happen to look
like they came from the 1950s.
- Fair.
So would you, like vintage is something that you would say,
or are you like it just happens to be vintage?
- It just happens.
- It just happens like that.
- I've always, I've curled my hair always,
because I have naturally incredibly straight hair.
You can't tell today, but I have naturally
incredibly straight here and I don't like it
so I always curled it.
I used to rag it like a Victorian child
and then the wondrous sponge rollers came into my life,
pin curling, always been a pin curling fan.
And it just happened to look really 1950s.
I do think I accidentally fell
through a worm hole at some point.
I'm not gonna lie.
No, I was probably just born later than I should have been,
but you know, I'd be dead if I'd been born in the 50s.
- But you're like yeah, very grateful
'cause you're like I'd be dead and also I'm gay
and therefore that wouldn't have been the funnest thing.
- Yeah, disabled, gay?
Doing much better in this new century thank you, yes.
- So I currently have my foundation is down.
So you have a blank slate to work with.
- You're not really done.
We need to foundation your lips.
- Okay.
- Because how else will we get a crisp outline Rowan?
- A question I've never asked myself before.
- Yeah so we basically just get rid of your lips.
So sometimes I hum because
I can't hear myself hum, so.
I'm deaf, if you didn't know.
So sometimes I hum but then I realise I've been humming
but it's probably terrible and out of tune
'cause I can't hum.
- No, it was nice.
- We are looking to pin back your fringe
so I have access to all of your head.
- Okay, go for it.
- Face, reveal your face.
This is amazing.
- So I do my fringe before I do my makeup
so it's gonna be like a surprise.
- Wow, you have less forehead than I thought.
- Yeah, I have a really low forehead Jessica, okay?
- I thought your forehead was like up here.
I am going to do something better
with this obviously, later.
- What are you talking about?
This is the end style.
Oh hey guys.
So we're doing this question for you.
Since mentioning disability.
- Yes.
- How does your femme identity or femininity
intersect with that?
Does it have a relationship?
- Yeah I mean, that's always a good question.
It's always a good one.
In some ways it helps it.
So I get better treatment from doctors.
- Okay.
- Unequivocally, I do.
- 'Cause you look put together, or how does that?
- I guess I look incredibly non-threatening.
I literally found if I was in hospital
if I curled my hair and put lipstick on
they would be much kinder on ward rounds
than if I didn't.
- Wow.
- Yeah, they've just been rude.
- 'Cause I feel like that could go either way,
'cause I feel like if you look too put together
it could be like, well you seem like you're doing great.
- Yes, so that is also a concern.
And then another sort of problem with it
is that I look apparently like an idiot.
So there's always that kind of misogyny
and there's a bit of ageism and all of that thrown in
together I suppose.
And people tend to think that I don't know
what on Earth they're talking about
and I can't be educated or cultured.
And they assume things about the things
I like to talk about or the things I know about.
- So what kind of stuff do you feel like
people think you should be interested in
or that you wanna talk about?
- It's more that they just don't talk to me
about important things.
So doctors will kind of be like.
And they might talk to the person I'm with.
- Oh okay.
- I mean partially that's probably also a deaf thing.
And obviously if you're in a wheelchair
they will always talk to the person you're with.
- Is that weird then that you sort of have
different things that people might use
to infantilize you or to treat you like that
and it's kind of a bit like well I don't know
which one of them is making you do this?
- I'm often, I often find that very thing,
that I'm infantilized by people.
And it's difficult to do something about
and difficult to fight against
and for a long time I had a lot of issues with it
because it would bring me good things.
So I always felt safer as well.
So I think I used it as well as a safety net
when I was a teenager and when I was in my early 20s.
- Have you ever wanted, thought about dressing differently
or presenting yourself differently
to try and combat some of those things?
Or has it always been like
this is something I'm willing to put up with
because actually being who I am makes more sense?
- I don't think I have another option.
I cannot.
We did a style swap video, my dear wife and I,
and she is a kind of tomboy skater girl type of look.
Oh I just felt so uncomfortable wearing her clothes
and I was like what are these?
Jeans?
Can you dress real nice?
Horrible.
(laughter)
- So how does that intersect with,
I feel like it's continued
'cause it's how does this intersect
with disability and stuff?
- How does it intersect with being a gay woman?
- Yeah, like.
- Ooh well I did once get turned away from a feminist event
'cause I went and they were like uh.
And I was like no, I'm actually a lesbian.
- Please, I promise.
- No she's like, and then I've had other things
where someone's been like oh you know,
it's so terrible how women feel
they have to dress for men.
First of all I dress for myself.
Secondly I dress for women.
(laughter)
Thirdly, it attracts no one.
- In terms of how much effort gets put in,
is that something that you do all the time?
'Cause if you're dealing with
issues of being ill or having a migraine
or the sort of stuff that would happen to you,
do you find that it's quite,
it's something that makes you feel more like you
and therefore you want to do it
even when you are feeling down
or is it just like a no, this goes out the window
if I'm feeling?
- No, it never, I only have straight hair
if I've had a migraine the night before.
- Interesting.
That's like the one, like you can tell.
- Yeah it's my tell.
'Cause I roll my hair.
I wash my hair once a week and I roll it
and then I have nicely curled hair all week.
But if I have a migraine I do not, so then it's straight.
Because when I'm ill I'm really ill.
Like I'm not just I have a snuffle today
but it's just a snuffle.
No when I'm really ill I'm the kind of like
lying in bed, can't move my head because of the pain,
literally can't open my eyes.
I just vomit every 20 minutes, probably more,
can't get up and go to the loo even.
Like really, I'm really really bad.
So no, I don't put makeup on because I don't do anything.
- That's, so what's really interesting to me
is the way that gender and gender presentation and stuff,
it's both a presentation thing,
where it's like yes, I have this makeup
or this way of dressing or this way of doing my hair,
but also it is like an innate feeling.
- Yeah, 'cause I'm not me when I'm really ill either.
I'm just a blob.
I'm just this blob body.
Yeah so blusher, by the way, this is blusher
and you just put it on the areas where you blush.
- I mean I don't blush so I don't know where that is.
- You don't blush?
- No, my skin is just like pale.
- How do you not blush?
- I always have to use blusher, like artificial blusher.
- What happens when you're embarrassed?
- Nothing.
I don't get very embarrassed.
- You can be like stealth embarrassed.
- Well I feel like my face would do something awkward
so they'd be happy to tell from my facial expression
but not from colour on my face at all.
How's it looking?
- Delightful.
- Excellent.
- You look delightful.
My next thing is eyebrows.
You know the funny thing is I don't,
I'm really happy going out without makeup.
I'm fine.
We go to the shops.
I don't wear makeup.
But I'm all or nothing.
So it's either an entire makeup look or just nothing.
- Okay so what would you say to people
who see makeup and fashion as being
inherently without value or surface level, or?
Do you know what I mean?
Like if people are like if you spend time
on makeup and fashion then you must be shallow
or you must be this.
Your thoughts, as you do my eyes please?
- Okay, well first of all, what a closed minded thought.
It's ridiculous.
I think that we all have very different ways
of the things that we like to see upon ourselves
and I think that makeup brings many people a lot of joy
and it makes you feel like you are fully yourself
and then that allows you the happiness
to be able to go out and achieve your best
in the outside world.
I cannot stand the comments whenever
I don't wear a lot of makeup.
Sometimes I just happen to leave home
without wearing makeup or anything.
And the number of people who are like
oh you look so much better without makeup,
oh you don't need it.
I'm like I'm aware I don't need it.
No one's actually gonna die
unless they put makeup on their face.
Being undiagnosed when I was a child
probably added a great thing to my self esteem.
And I was like well I know something's wrong with me
even if you idiots don't.
Look at me.
- I do think there is a lot of
the whole positives about marginalised identities
and illnesses and blah blah blah
is a big part of it is the idea of
say for example, being gay, it's like well
you've had to go through a self identity process
like you've had to question and know yourself
in a way that a lot of straight people
have just sort of taken for granted
so you're actually having.
I went on this kind of interesting course
about being gay and being in the work place
and how that's not just for like oh it's a quota,
have more gays, but that actually there's something
that might actually be valuable about having someone
(Jessica whispering)
who has had to question their identity
and get to know themselves and kind of
work on themselves in a way
that other people might not have.
And I feel like, you'd think like,
'cause it can be such a part of you
that you're like well.
And I think that a lot of people say it
of people who are very one end of the gender spectrum
kind of thing.
So might look at someone who's high femme
and be like well you wouldn't do that if you were a boy.
But I'm like but none of us would if
even a slight thing had changed in our lives
we might not dress a certain way
or act a certain way or whatever.
Like if I, if you're from a different country
that had different ideas around history,
that had different things.
If you were like, we talked about the idea
of you had a certain body shape
and you thought those dresses looked nice on you and stuff.
If you happened to have had a different body shape
and everything else had been the same--
- That's true, yeah.
- You might have had a totally different idea
of what fashion you want to be.
- I have a real, I have a really 1950s body.
- And that, but that isn't something
that should be levelled as a criticism
but I think often it is this idea
of you just think you like dresses
but you don't really, it's only because of
the way that women are supposed to dress.
And it's kind of like well even if it is the case
why would it be different?
- Even if I had been born male or born a different body,
I think I'd probably still be obsessed with pretty things.
- Exactly.
And also it doesn't, I don't think that should be a way
of shutting down women who want to dress a way.
It should be a way of opening up boys
to be able to do that.
- I like that.
- I mean, personally, my opinion on that.
- Alright we're gonna have to do your eyeliner.
- Okay come on.
I believe in us.
- Thank you.
It's always so hard to do eyeliner on other people.
Yeah, sorry, Tilly has joined us.
Hello baby.
I drew a vaguely straight line but I'm proud of myself.
- I'm proud of you too.
- Okay, open.
I am quite of a perfectionist.
What would you describe your style as?
- Um I really don't know.
It's just comfortable.
- But that's not, that's not true.
- Comfortable, vaguely feminine.
- 'Cause I think if your style was comfortable
it would just be like beige all the time.
- Yeah that's true.
- You don't just wear beige cotton.
- Yeah, the blue thing is
just 'cause I used to wear, have brown hair,
I just used to have blue all the time.
That was always a colour, 'just 'cause it always like,
pretty much any shade of blue would suit me fine.
- And then you were like everything I own is blue,
might as well do my hair.
- So originally I was like oh I just want
a little bit of blue on the ends or something.
And then I was like do you know what?
Screw it.
I'm just gonna go the full way.
- Okay, lips.
- How do I?
- I'm doing it for you.
I know but do I need to make a shape?
- This.
- Ah.
- See?
That's what I meant.
I was doing it for you.
I wasn't just smiling at you.
So this is fascinating in terms of filming,
Alright put together for me.
- The femininity, in terms of,
'cause I think a lot of people do question it
in some ways and some people really,
so this idea of oh, you're doing this thing
that women are told they have to be.
But I'm like actually,
there are so many ways of being feminine.
There's so many ways of identifying as femme.
Like I consider myself as quite femme.
But we would do each other's makeup
and it would be like oh this isn't me,
like this isn't the right stuff, this isn't who I am.
'Cause it's not just makeup in general, I just like.
It's like no, specifically, I've made a conscious decision
with my identity or with who I am
to be like this is the way
that I wanna play around with this.
- Oh my God, I'd love to have like a modern makeup makeover.
That would be so weird.
- That would be weird.
I mean it would be weird for me as well
because I'm so basics.
- Kind of like sparkly highlight.
Okay, alright.
Do you want to see your makeup before I do your hair?
- No, I want everything.
- No.
- Yeah, everything is going to be completely.
- Okay in that case I'm going to do your hair
and then we're going to come back.
- Okay cool.
So hair is happening.
Back in a second I guess.
Ding and then oh it's gonna be done.
(lively Jazz music)
And we're back.
This is me with the hair.
I'm also in one of Jessica's dresses
and I still haven't seen myself
because I don't have my glasses on, so.
- Would you like to see yourself?
- Yes.
- Da da da da.
- Ooh that's, oh the hair is really cute.
And the, you're right, the lips are weird
'cause they're almost my lips
but they're not quite my lips.
- Yeah so they're overdrawn in the middle
and then they slope down.
- Ooh.
- It's to give you more of a pout.
- 'Cause mine are normally more like sharp and then angular.
Oh this is so weird.
And having eyeshadow and kind of white eyeshadow.
It's so weird 'cause it's like almost my face
but it's not quite my face.
Ooh it's so pretty.
And can I, hang on, I'm gonna look in the,
I'm like you know we have to see more action to this.
You're just here, 'cause the mirror is there.
Hang on, let me get my glasses on.
(laughter)
- This is the best bit.
'Cause she actually has no idea.
- I feel like with these things and the glasses
I feel like I just look like a 1950s secretary.
- You look excellent.
The glasses I think add to it.
- This is so cute.
These pins, they're so perfect.
- Thanks.
- What on Earth?
I feel like if I try and do these.
- Do you want me to do your pins on each side?
(laughter)
- If I try and pin anything into my hair
it's like 80 pins later.
I'm like I guess it's sort of stable-ish
and then it falls down within two minutes.
- This is lovely.
I think it suits you so well.
- Thank you.
- Oh there's one thing I forgot to say.
- Oh yeah well just insert it.
- That would be quite good to insert.
- Yes.
- Now that you're already done.
The thing is, I always think that people look at me
and they know I'm a lesbian.
- Ooh okay.
- Yeah, because I'm so obsessed with feminine things
so I really like to dress in a really feminine way
and I like feminine girly stuff.
So I assume they must know that I also like feminine--
- Women.
The feminine women.
- You know, I'm so into feminine that, obviously.
- So when I, when I first came out,
the people at my school were like you can't be a lesbian
because you have long hair.
And you can't be a lesbian.
Like don't you wanna wear dresses and go and get married?
- And at that point I was like I would love to get married
but you lot have made it illegal so I can't.
(laughter)
- I had two wedding dresses, just to put that out there.
- Very, just peak lesbian right there.
But it's, but yeah, that's really interesting
that it's, I mean have you found that in practise?
People realise you're a lesbian?
Or do you just feel very gay?
- Oh people are always shocked.
(laughter)
- Same, same.
- I'm like oh no, I'm a lesbian.
It's like where's your husband?
My wife is over there.
- Wife over here.
Just take her with you wherever you go
so you can be like aha.
- Oh?
No one ever expects I'm a lesbian.
- Thank you so much for being here.
- You're very welcome.
- And telling me about all of the things.
- I love that you said being here.
This is my house.
- Thank you for having me here as well.
Being here on the channel and here in your house.
If there's anyone else on the internet
who's quite femme presenting
who'd be interested to hear talk about their style
and gender and identity and stuff
let me know in the comments.
- Is this mainly 'cause you want makeovers?
- Listen, yes, first of all, completely.
And also 'cause I just think
it's kind of an interesting identity point
that I think is for some people as feminists,
there's this idea of femininity and feminism
doesn't go together.
And I like to kind of explore that
'cause I think it's nonsense.
- I agree.
- So yeah, until we see you next time, bye.
- Buh bye.