- [Jonathan Leeman] Brothers, a contested topic these days is,
"What does it mean to be a man?"
Just recently, in media and the news, a lot of conversations
about toxic masculinity, and people's reactions to overly
aggressive forms, say, of what it means to be a man,
and commercials talking about that, and so forth.
And reactions, and counter-reactions to what manliness is, or even contesting the
very category itself. It certainly has been a
topic among Christians.
Complementarianism versus egalitarianism.
And even more closely, you think about churches
addressing men's ministry.
But how do we do men's ministry, and examples of this in one church,
and an example of that in another church?
You're both full-time pastors, right, both lead pastors. How do you think
about drawing men to your church and teaching what it means to be a man?
- [John Onwuchekwa] So, I mean, at our church right now,
we've got lots of young men, they're younger than I am, at least.
So I think, we've been really impacted by Paul's words to Titus, when he says,
"Encourage the young men to be self-controlled." [Titus 2:6]
And I know as I grew up, lots of talks about manhood start
with discouragement.
And I've just found you never discourage anybody to faithfulness, right?
You can't shame them into being self-controlled.
And so it starts with us just trying to say, "Hey, how do we praise what we want
to see more?
How do we start with the men at our church just getting with two or three younger men
and just starting with them and walk with them for a time?"
And what we found is, when it's really modeled and done well,
that comes really an attractive crop, that you don't have to go out and
recruit men to come in, people start to just catch a whiff of it.
And there's no real place in our context, at least, that you see men going
to get trained, and developed, and built up.
So it creates . . .
- [Leeman] Are you intentionally thinking like, okay, I want to get men?
- [Onwuchekwa] Yes.
- [Leeman] Do you intentionally think that or are you thinking,
"I'm trying to get Christians and non-Christians to come?"
Are you thinking men?
[Onwuchekwa] No . . .
Yeah, men as well, especially...
So, you think of the church historically, in our context,
and it's largely been built and run and supported off of the backs of our sisters.
And we're grateful for that.
But, we have in mind, no, no, we want to raise up a crop
of strong young men.
So there's lots that we do intentionally to raise them up.
- [Leeman] And there you're looking to Scripture?
- [Onwuchekwa] Absolutely.
- [Juan Sánchez] Yeah
I mean, I think in many ways, we do what we're called to do,
which is to preach the Word, to build up the church.
And as we do that, one of the things that I ran into when I came to the church where
I am, 13.5 years ago, is I noticed that there actually was not a
real clear biblical understanding of biblical manhood and womanhood.
And so we just set to do, begin with preaching the Word,
but also intentionally trying to develop a culture of biblical manhood and womanhood,
and talk about...to reorient people into biblical roles.
I live in Texas, and so there's a stereotypical way
to think about manhood.
And so one of the things that I thought was really helpful in my thinking,
I heard Matt Chandler give a talk on this, and he said, "In our biblical view
of manhood, we have to have a place for that man who is artistic,
who is creative."
You know, my undergraduate degree is in music, and so that really
resonated with me.
You know, instead of thinking manhood in stereotypical fashion,
or even womanhood in stereotypical fashion, just really dig in.
And what we learn is we were intentionally seeing a Sunday school class having a
class on biblical manhood and womanhood.
And even in our preaching, making application we learned that our
people started capturing the language, and they started using the language
of biblical manhood and womanhood.
And so for us . . .
- [Leeman] How long is that Sunday school class?
- [Sánchez] It's just a 45-minute-long class on Sunday mornings.
- [Leeman] Okay.
But I mean how many weeks is it?
- [Sánchez] Oh, it's about a semester-long class.
- [Leeman] Okay. Just on manhood and womanhood?
- [Sánchez] Yeah, yeah.
And what we find, especially with the younger folks that are imbibing the
culture or just being influenced by the culture, I find that young people,
they don't necessarily know how to think straight, they think emotionally.
"Well, my friend is, you know, my friend who is a girl now wants
to identify as a boy.
And what's wrong with that?"
And if we don't help people know how to think and establish, biblically,
God's design, and the goodness of it, and the blessings of it,
then I think we leave our children and our younger folks up to confusion,
and to let the world inform their view of manhood and womanhood.
- [Leeman] Amidst cultural controversies and the back and forth,
the reactions and the counter-reactions, I think one of the ways we avoid
imbalances is doing the best we can do as you guys have described it,
just align ourselves up with Scripture, right?
I'm not looking to import a certain cultural conception of masculinity,
or femininity, manhood, or womanhood, let me just emphasize what the Bible says
in terms of what manhood and womanhood is.
But also, I would say, in terms of, as it were, raising up godly men who lead,
right, and so there, I just think: elders.
What does the Bible say about elders?
What can we do to cultivate a culture of discipling, right, and disciple-making
in our church, that helps men to desire to be elders?
So often in conversations, I'll say to a guy, I'll say, "So,
John," say you're a member of my church, "What's the difference between you
and an elder?"
Like what steps of maturity do you have to take to become an elder?
You know, you might be a young punk at this point, but hopefully,
that plants a seed where you start to think, "Okay, well, why am I
not an elder?"
And so there, I'm just trying to lay the foundation for what the Bible says
about what godly men should be.
And that's men who are leading their homes, are, you know, above reproach,
not drunkards, self-controlled, husbands of one wife,
manage their household well, that's a godly man.Right?
And so I think Scripture has it.
Any other thoughts on this, brothers, about...?
- [Onwuchekwa] A last thought, we adopted our daughter
about two years ago.
And at the time, I was in the midst of a group of three guys,
we would meet once a week in my house for three years to eat
and study God's Word.
We adopted my daughter just right smack dab in the middle of that,
and they kept on coming.
And so it's been crazy the past two years for them to come in.
And it's the first time, really, in their lives that they've seen a child
from a baby, grow up, and they get to know her,
and they see the joy that she brings into our house.
And so far, the first time, it kind of feels like it gives them a
vision for the joy that can come in a simple life
of being at home with your one wife and your one family.
- [Leeman] And they're watching you be a dad?
They're watching you be a godly man.
- [Onwuchekwa] That there's no substitute really for healthy models that create
really this compelling vision for the joys that God gives and the simple
ordinary things that is often taken for granted.
- [Leeman] So sorry, the last question here.
Do you have men's ministries,
or are you trying more just to cultivate a culture?
- [Onwuchekwa] So both things.
So we're trying to build a culture, and we're just now starting.
We're three-and-a-half years in, so we're just now starting to try to see
if there is something a little more organized that we can do maybe to catch
some of those men that are on the fringes.
- [Sánchez] Back to your point, I think it's really helpful to help
men understand, you know, who God made them to be.
And ask the question about eldership.
But even before that, what we learned is, because in a lot of contexts,
it's the women who have been serving in the churches, creating spaces
for men to serve.
And do something as simple as Scripture reading in the gathered service was
fascinating for us.
We thought, "Let's just visually show men being engaged, reading Scripture..."
- [Leeman] Because that can be passive.
- [Sánchez] That's right.
Reading Scripture and praying before I get up to preach.
And we just literally go through the directory.
They have the freedom to say no, but we just want to go through the
directory and just encourage men to get up.
And that's been really encouraging for us to see these men.
We have been encouraged by the way they pray, some men that have been quiet
in the church.
And then also, some very deliberate for us, training spaces to encourage men
to challenge them theologically, to think biblically.
And so we have had some times where we would invite the men of the church to join
us for a book study or theology study, and challenge men
theologically and intellectually.
And that has really been encouraging.
And one of the things that has happened is that, from some of that,
a couple of men approached me not too long ago, and they said, "We want to see a
little more structure.
What do you think?"
I said, "Well, if the Lord is putting this on your heart, then
let me encourage you this is what we want to be doing." But I just
encourage them to...
It started out with them getting fathers and boys together.
And then I think they decided to think about expanding more just to the men
of the church.
- [Leeman] Let me just draw two principles that I heard you say that I
think are transferable to most situations.
Principle number one, looking for ways to give other men
opportunities and make them visible in leadership.
And number two, not micromanaging everything in the church,
and giving other men chances to lead things they initiate that you
don't necessarily lead.
When you do that, as a pastor, I think you're making your church
an inviting place for men to come in and discover, "Hey, I can be a leader here.
I can do stuff." That's wonderful.
- [Onwuchekwa] Thanks.
- [Leeman] So thanks for your time, guys.
- [Onwuchekwa] Yeah. - [Sánchez] Sure.