So Russell, Vodi, a lot of Christians seem to lose their
footing when they're talking with a neighbor about
homosexuality, in trying to explain why it's wrong. I mean,
we may not quote maybe a couple of Bible verses, but explaining
the wrongness of it, especially when the response is, well, it's
not hurting anybody. So how could it be wrong? It's not
harming anybody? And what would you say to that?
Well, I would say, first of all, you have to ask What is this
for? What is sexuality for? And so if we believe that God
designed this, then that means that there's, there's a purpose
to it and the complementarity of a man and a woman in a marriage
relationship, fidelity, one flesh, that stands behind the
whole reason for the design of sexuality is not just an
individual matter. It's something that has to do with
binding those two together in connection with future
generations and with the generations that have come
before. So it's kind of a big picture discussion about why do
we even have sex? What what's the purpose here. And then the
other problem is, what a lot of our gay and lesbian neighbors
assume is that we have marriage, and we're wanting to restrict
this marriage, and we're not wanting them to have it. So we
wanted to keep something to ourselves. What we're saying is
not we don't want you to be able to get married, we're saying the
same sex marriage is impossible, based upon what sexuality and
what marriage is. So it's not that we're trying to disappoint
our neighbors, we're saying this is this is for the good of human
flourishing. And we'd love you. That's the reason why not only
do we say that, we think there's there's some restrictions for
you. There's some restrictions on us. In terms of what what
this looks
Yeah, and there always have been. And I think that's an
important point, I think people also need to understand two
things. One, we say it's not harming anybody, it's me in my
bedroom. Well, the current debate about marriage explodes
that myth, this is not private. This is pressing upon culture as
a whole. And because they framed it in civil rights language, it
means that this is a greatest farce ever, you can go ahead and
practice your religion, this has nothing to do with you
practicing your religion. If this is a civil rights issue,
and if us not doing weddings for homosexuals, or not hiring
homosexuals, becomes violating civil rights, then it is not
conceivable that the church will be unharmed by this. So that
that myth is exploded. This is not private, this is public. The
other thing is that all legal decisions are based on
principles and established precedent. And right now the
principle is, you know, sort of the Beatles mentality All You
Need Is Love, when that's the case, if marriage is based on
popular opinion, and who loves each other, the 50 year old man
and the 12 year old boy, the man and his daughter, so on and so
forth. And so Oh, red herring. No, not once the principal is
established. So this is not private. Right? It doesn't stop
here.
Yeah, I think, you know, I think we ought to even challenge the
principle that just because something doesn't harm that,
that takes it out of the realm of morality, if you cheat on
your wife, and she never finds out about it, and you lie about
it, is it wrong? And I think most people would say yes,
because lying is inherently wrong. Yeah. And then the other
thing is, is realizing that a lot of times harm does not
reveal itself immediately. If you if you if you are violent
towards someone, that's an immediate effect. But you have
to look at the long term effect of the harm. And for as long as
there has been human history, you mentioned this voti, that
the sanctuary into which families have been brought
forward has been a monogamous relationship between two
opposite genders, where they learn to love the other. And
that is what the Creator called marriage. You know, the Achilles
heel right now of I think of the homosexual, so called marriage
debate is just the utter lack of monogamy. You know, that's
something that's not really in that and so once you start
tearing down the otherness of marriage, the sanctuary of
monogamy that lifelong faithfulness into which a family
arises, the the harmful effect may not be demonstrably
immediate, but I think you'll see it and I think a lot of
surveys start to bear that out.
Well, one of the things I think that we need to recognize is
that the language that's being used here is language that we
have already surrendered to. One of the reasons why this is such
a confusing thing for a lot of Evan Jellicle teenagers is
because we have been talking as though marriage is an individual
matter between two people are wedding ceremonies, couples are
writing their own vows, right? They're, you know, they're
dictating the terms and this is our big day. That's not what
that's not what marriage is in a Christian context. Yeah. And so
even when, for a long time you've had in Christian
churches, couples who are newly married and the people are
coming by and saying now make sure that you wait a long time
before you have children so that you're able to enjoy one one
another, as though you can't enjoy one another raising up
children together, well, you're already surrendering to the
terms that the rest of the culture says, Well, if that's
what marriage is, is celebrating a relationship between two
people, we have a relationship, why shouldn't we do this? So I
think we've got to back up and reclaim in our own churches a
longer, bigger definition of what marriage is, and start
grounding that back in Ephesians, five, rather than in
the ways that we've committed,
so maybe related to this, what does? What role does the church
have right now, in speaking about this issue, I mean,
there's some who say this discussion is lost. We just need
to let the world be the world. And we'll just focus on the
church. I mean, you know,
the fact of the matter is, we're in this world of though we're
not of this world. The fact of the matter is, the church is the
pillar and the ground truth. And we don't take the truth and
hiding under a bushel, that's not the church, we don't live
these completely separate sort of bifurcated lives, that we are
the light of the world, we are the salt that preserves. And so
it's just completely, it's inconceivable that we would not
speak to this issue.
I had a pastor telling me not long ago, he said, Why don't we
just say, let's read, allow everybody to redefine marriage
on the outside, and we'll just maintain Christian marriage on
the inside of the church. And that's what we tried that with
the divorce culture. And what happens, we wind up with
churches that have said, we're going to, we're just going to
allow this to take place no, divorce on the outside, not
speak to it, and then speak to it internally. And that
collapses in to the church, it transforms the nature of the
church number one, number two is not loving to neighbor, we ever
unaccountability to one another divorce hurts kids hurts
families hurts the entire social fabric, so does the expanding
out of marriage to where marriage doesn't mean anything
anymore. I mean, there's a reason why the state is involved
in marriage in the first place. State doesn't have anything to
do with registering people, as friends, doesn't have anything
to do with those things. It has an interest in male female
marriage, because male female marriage can lead to something
very dangerous for the state, and that is children. And the
state has to say, Who is the father of this child who's
accountable for it. That's the distinction there.
And you think also the spiritual danger. I mean, just to thinking
of the role of the churches, as priest in the community, First
Corinthians six, those who practice such things cannot
inherit the kingdom of God. This is in many ways a gospel issue,
because we failed to preach here. Absolutely. And I think
John the Baptist, I've thought about, you know, him in this
culture, you know, I mean, just think about the absurdity of his
death. And you can hear the critics today say, we'll see,
that's what you get for maximum messing around in politics, of
course, here is going to sleep with his brother's wife, because
they're the world we want the world with the world.
Yeah. Why are you surprised? Right? Right. That just kills me
when people argue, Jesus called him the
greatest prophet that had ever lived, you know, up until his
time and you think of where's the spirit of John the Baptist?
Who? Are we willing to the spirit, the spirit of John the
Baptist enemy, the spirit of John, the Baptist enemies? Is it
work within them today? But where is the John the Baptist?
In our call?
Let me let me say quickly and hearty Amen to that. But thank
you for addressing what I think is two core issues as it relates
to responding to the culture, because they say on the one
hand, well, now you guys are concerned, but nobody says
anything about divorce. That's a flat out lie. I mean, we've been
talking about this for a long time. And there's a long paper
trail of us, you know, talking about this and dealing with this
for a long time. And the second thing is, Christians are both
you've hit on this, Christians either saying, Oh, why are you
surprised? That's them, this is us, or saying, well, the state
has no business and no place in marriage. And I think you just
succinctly address that
he believes that it's good to have children who are abandoned
on the side of the road, and the state has no interest if that's
if that's the kind of world you want to live in. Right, then
that's the case. But that's not the world anyone wants to live
in. I mean, not even the Roman Empire was that bad off, right?
And so we have to have the state coming in even even just at the
level of adjudicating between people what Solomon had to do,
or who does these who do these babies belong? A woman who's
abandoned? Yeah. What do we do that when somebody's responsible
when a woman's abandoned? And that becomes a judicial issue
there. And I think what people are trying to say is, the state
doesn't have the authority to define marriage. And that's
exactly right. And I'll go there, but they have to
acknowledge what the definition is. That's a
good point. This is a discussion that needs to happen. It's
probably going to need to happen a lot more on local church
levels as people have got to get aware of why this is wrong and
what it is I appreciate the words So many gentlemen Chair
Thank you