Welcome back to the show, my friend.
-Oh, thank you for having me again. -Good to see you.
The last time I saw you was in South Africa.
-Yes, Johannesburg. -Was that your first time out there?
That was my first time in South Africa.
-First time on that continent, period. -Are you serious?
-Absolutely. -Did you kiss the ground and be like, "I'm home."?
-Um, no, but I-I felt that way. -Yeah.
You know, I felt the connection. You know what I mean?
I felt like, uh, I was in... I was in the right body,
-so to speak. -You know what's...?
You know what's interesting is, I took that for granted
until I lived in the U.S. for, like, three years.
-And then, when I went home now... -Uh-huh.
...I was like, "Oh, now I-I see what that feeling is."
'Cause black Americans used to tell me that
when they'd come to South Africa,
and I'd be like, "Really?"
-Nah, I felt it... -But, no. You-you...
There is a special feeling. Like, you-you had that, as well?
Yeah, and I think it... I think it's two ways to feel,
um, 'cause my wife was telling me how she kind of felt
like a disconnect only because it's a...
It's a whole bunch of people that look like us,
but they know their culture.
-They're speaking a different language. -Wow.
She felt like she had been robbed.
And I was like, "Baby, you were." Okay? We...
-We all were. -Right, right.
You know, so, it's-it's a dual feeling.
Some people feel disconnected,
and then, some of us feel like we're at home.
But the beauty of it is you can always learn, right?
-Yeah. -You can learn what tribe you're from.
You can learn your culture,
you can learn your original language.
-You can, man. -Yeah.
You're someone who's on a journey of learning right now.
-Yes. -Charlamagne is somebody many people may know
as, you know, a face of hip-hop,
a face of, you know, like, entertainment
and what's happening in the world.
But I feel like, over the past few years,
you've been on a journey
of, like, evolving yourself as a human being,
and that's what this book feels like--
Shook One: Anxiety Playing Tricks on Me.
This is a book about mental health.
Yes, and it didn't, uh...
Uh, I didn't intend for it to be a book about mental health.
Like, you know, I was literally just keeping a journal
of all my therapy sessions.
So I was keeping a journal of things
that, you know, give me anxiety now...
-Right. -things that have historically given me anxiety.
And then, you know, when you're sitting in therapy,
you just start unpacking all kinds of stuff.
So it just became the pages in this book.
But sitting in therapy is not something
that many black men would A: admit to,
and B: want to be involved in.
That's-that's-that's... that's a movement
that you've really been, you know, at the forefront of.
-Yes. -There's many... there's many black men
who've said in America, "Yo, I go to therapy now
-because of Charlamagne." -Absolutely.
Because you're in a community where, for a long time was like,
"Yo, you do what? You go to therapy?"
And that's why I always say, you know, sometimes God
allows things to happen to you so he can work through you.
And that's why I think it's very important
-for us to always share our experiences. -Right.
Because it can help the next person.
Like, for example, you know, my father--
which I just found out over Thanksgiving--
my father had been going to therapy
two and three times a week.
-He tried to kill himself 30 years ago. -Wow.
He, uh, has been on ten to 12 different medications
-for his... -And you never... you never knew this?
Never knew it. But he read my book, and that's when he decided
to come have the conversation with me about it.
So if he'd have told me about this years ago,
then I would have known that there was tools and resources
out there that could have helped me combat
what I've been dealing with my whole life.
Do you think that, fundamentally,
hip-hop and its culture goes against ideas of, like,
getting help and therapy, and, like...
Like, do you think there's a part of the culture itself
that-that doesn't, you know, speak to that?
Or, you know, it's, like, frowned upon in a way.
Um, that's a good question.
I think that we lean on the wrong things.
Like, there's a lot of self-medication.
That's where the weed and the pills
and the alcohol are involved.
Or a lot of times, just as a black person,
we think that, like, pain is normal, you know?
Like, growing up in America, you think that a lot of things
that we go through-- the trauma, the pain--
like, we're supposed to be going through that,
but then when you kind of, like, transcend those circumstances,
and you're on the outside looking in, you're like:
ah, a lot of things that we used to normalize,
or a lot of things that we used to go through,
-aren't-aren't exactly normal. -Right. It's interesting,
in the book, like, you've broken down
into different chapters that tackle specific issues.
You know? Things like "Forget the FOMO."
"Being blackanoid is a reality."
"Therapy is not embarrassing."
"Getting help is your right." "Be confident in your own skin."
And I was struck by a few things.
I've always known Charlamagne as, like,
one of the most confident people out here.
You say things that have half of the Internet coming after you.
Like, every time I see you say something, I'm just like, "Wow."
That don't mean I'm confident. I could just be stupid.
Yeah, I mean... But stupidly confident sometimes,
-is what I feel. -Yeah. True.
You'll say things, and literally, I've seen
half the Internet come after you.
But in the book, you talk about how much anxiety
that has created in your life.
I never thought that that was an issue that you faced.
And a lot of people get anxiety from the Internet.
Have you found tools that help people overcome that?
I mean, you talk about it in the book,
but what have you really found that works?
Well, uh, therapy, number one, you know?
And number two, honestly, just, um, thinking a little bit more
before you tweet things out.
-(laughing) -You know what I'm saying?
Some things... some things can be avoided
-if you just ask your circle first of all. -Right.
Like, I think our first instinct--
sometimes we don't understand something--
is just to run to the Internet with it.
Let me ask a couple of people that I trust first of all,
you know, what they think about this,
and then I'll give my opinion on it... on it later.
It's interesting, because you are a... a friend
and someone who has interviewed Kanye West.
-Right? -Yeah.
And what's been interesting this year is the journey
that Kanye West has been on.
We saw Kanye West come out, and, you know, some people said
he had stopped medication to start making music again.
-Yeah. He said that. -He was in the studio. Right.
And then... and then we started seeing
Kanye the MAGA hat wearer,
Kanye, like, you know, coming out and saying things
about the world, you know, and-and everyone was like,
"Oh, man, he's crazy," and made the jokes.
And then Kanye came out and said, "No, no, no.
-I have mental health issues." -Yeah.
And then everyone was like, "Oh. We-we can't make jokes."
Then he sat down with President Trump,
and he was like, "Oh, I was misdiagnosed."
"I was misdiagnosed, I don't have bipolar,
-it was sleep deprivation." -"I don't have it.
It's just sleep deprivation." That's like, "Wait,
so we can make the jokes?" And then the other day
on Twitter, I saw, like, Ariana Grande went and said something,
and then he's like, "I have mental health issues."
-Yeah. -But, like, there's an interesting world--
I mean, maybe you can speak on it--
where it feels like someone is using "mental health"
as, like, a buffer, like, they go like,
"I can do crazy things, and then if someone calls me out,
I'll be like: Oh, no, no, no, I've got mental health,
so you can't say anything about that.
Yeah, I mean this in the most brotherly, uh,
you know, black man to black man way possible.
Kanye West is full of shit, right?
-And... And... -(laughter)
And-and what I mean by that is exactly what you just said.
You sat in the White House with Donald Trump
-and you said you didn't have bipolar. -Right.
You were misdiagnosed; it was sleep deprivation.
You're off your medication and you create better without it.
But when you get into a rap feud with Drake,
the only way you can combat Drake in any way,
shape or form is to weaponize mental health, and say that
Drake bullies people with mental health issues
based off, you know, a couple of bars
that Drake gave Kid Cudi who suffers from mental health,
and now Drake, you know, coming at Kanye West.
But, to me, man, it has nothing to do with mental health.
This is about sneakers.
It's the fact that Drake is effecting your sneaker sales,
because-- No. Because in the biggest song of the year...
(laughter and applause)
In the biggest song of the year, which is "Sicko Mode,"
you know, with Drake and Travis Scott,
-Drake says, uh, "checks over stripes." -Right.
And then in another record with French Montana
called "No Stylist," he said, "Don't wear no 350s around me,"
-which is, uh, one of Kanye West's sneakers. -Right.
Kanye West's last couple of sneakers
haven't really sold extremely well.
Now, I can't chalk that all up to Drake.
I'm gonna chalk that up to some of the MAGA hat, too,
but the-the only way you can think to combat Drake
is to weaponize mental health issues?
That's whack, my brother. That's lame.
What would you hope that-that you could change
in somebody's mind when they read the book?
I mean, because here's what's interesting about this book,
is that I like that you haven't tried
to present yourself as an expert.
-I'm not an expert at anything. -Right. You-you-you write--
No, but you write about your experiences,
and then you have a therapist who actually, like,
-basically has an addendum after each chapter -Dr. Ish.
that breaks it down like a real medical professional.
So what would you hope
that somebody takes away from reading this book?
Especially people who see mental health as like,
"Oh, man, you crazy."
Like, what would you, what would you hope that they take away?
I would hope that they take away
the fact that it's okay to get help.
It's okay to not be okay.
I look at mental health the same say I look at physical health.
You know, like, if you get a little chubby
around the middle, which we all do during the winter,
you're gonna go work it out, you're gonna go eat right.
I think it's the same thing with your brain,
you know what I'm saying? Like, you have to watch
what you put into your brain.
You have therapists and psychiatrists
that you can sit down and talk to and figure things out,
and work through these issues.
So it's just okay to-to not be okay.
And it's okay to say you're not okay.
And if people think you're crazy, so what?
You know what I'm saying? You know what's crazy?
Not going to get help for it.
Thank you so much for being on the show, my brother.
-Yeah, man. Thanks. -Great having you back.
Shook One-- Really different and interesting look
at Charlamagne Tha God-- is available now.