at the age of 29 years old what
Snowden's yet is stunning to me because
it takes tremendous courage to turn your
back on a life that's spoiling him -
he's good money good job good position
I mean why give it up and that's the key
we tried it show you what he turned his
back on
hi I'm Jason Leopold and welcome to this
episode of I stocks film today I'm
joined by Oliver Stone the Academy
award-winning filmmaker behind movies
such as platoon Wall Street and JFK but
today we're going to be speaking to him
about his new film Snowden the personal
story about the NSA whistleblower so
phone's gonna microwave dad I ask why
it blocks UHF frequencies before we get
on to the stories I need to know more
about you I'm 29 years old
I work as a product contractor for the
NSA for the CIA I worked in various jobs
in the intelligence industry for the
last nine years wasn't there gonna come
from and now that we've made contact
they're gonna come for all of each how
about we just start with your name okay
my name is Edward Joseph Snowden Oliver
Stone thank you for taking the time to
speak with me today there haven't been
any shortage of Edward Snowden's stories
that have surfaced over the past three
years what was missing from the
narrative the you hadn't led to you two
to humans evening now the human being I
mean why why did he do it he didn't
behave like any spy I had known of in
the past who would hide away and/or
benefit financially I went to Moscow at
the lawyer's invitation to meet him he
was very wary and I was wearing what was
he worried about was worried worried
about what I was doing and I want a
movie of his life it was all new to him
and me too I didn't know who I wanted to
go ahead frankly because I didn't know
that the Snowden matter would be of
interest to me personally I supported
the case supported him at the time as a
private citizen but as a dramatist it's
another role the point was I had to go
back to Musk out three more times by the
third trip I felt we were trusting each
other and he started to really open up
without his knowledge of the NSA I don't
think we could have proceeded a longer
sentence the way they talked the way
they act what happened to him
specifically we also met with Lindsay
his girlfriend you see this is a
overlooked part of the story that the
media they'd written a lot about him
much of it was inaccurate but they never
paid much attention or respect to
Lindsey mills so it was a classified as
a pole dancers not a girl who's let's
say an extrovert on Facebook too much
blah blah blah a stripper she some
people said Lindsey is a central figure
in the movie in terms of Snowden's
transformation yes I'm very curious
about is how much of that is true and
how much of it is dramatized what was it
you were doing during analysis for those
stage partner don't be shy I don't want
anyone else shailene woodley portrays
her I think very effectively and shows
you that she's the link
she's the human link that exists in this
story because she was in all these
places she traveled in between there's a
lot of things we couldn't we had to omit
for time purposes but she was on
Facebook she posted a lot shailene
woodley read all the posts
she was an extrovert and he was an
introvert he never wanted to be
photographed and so there was his
push-pull in the relationship
another thing that stood out in the
movie the narrative certainly that the
government is put out there is that
Edward Snowden was low-level analyst had
nothing to do with any of these
high-level programs no he was high-level
enough and by the time he got to the
Hawaii and was doing the heartbeat
heartbeat is a collection program he got
access to a lot more files and that was
a key that becomes a major collection he
has free access to move around so we
brought all this into one place it tried
to raise a steam level which is what
movies do in reality I would imagine the
extraction was really boring and it's
probably a question of being in a very
doing it openly almost quietly and no
one knows what's going on if you ever
seen a hack
an NSA operation it's a bunch of people
in a room on them yeah and you know it's
boring beyond belief hours go by nobody
notices things did you ask him how he
was it yeah I did he wouldn't tell me
much because it's an ongoing case but he
suggested him he suggested things that's
for sure he's such a polarizing figure
and you have one side that either hates
him and another side that thinks he's a
hero having spent two years now if not
longer on getting to know Edward Snowden
learning about these programs and the
public's response why do you think that
is why is he such a polarizing figure
published that's a journalist question I
mean I'm telling you what happened at
the age of 21 years old what he did is
stunning to me because no matter what
you think of a it takes tremendous
courage to turn your back on a life
that's spoiling him - he's good money
good job good position and on top of it
he has home and rented home in Hawaii
he's on the on the go-to list he gets to
Maryland at one point and he's making
more money than he's ever made selling
hardware to the CIA so you know we play
these points because there are crucial
to understanding how a man makes a
decision taking these arcane
surveillance programs and explaining it
to people in a language that they can
understand how challenging without so
boring I wanted to make a thriller I
wanted to make it exciting no one had a
two-hour framework for this whole movie
that was hard as you can understand I
mean the tremendous amount of
information plus there's a character
advancement in arc of ten years when you
realize the stakes here and he felt
strongly as a boy scout doubts that this
hey they wrote this Constitution in
blood they meant it these guys were not
joking around it's not some old piece of
paper it's a constitution he said to me
I pledged my loyalty to that
Constitution not to the NSA and that's a
good point to make the NSA has its own
set of laws when he broke those laws but
his law he never broke his law his oath
to that Constitution and many of the
courts have supported that because they
said it has been unconstitutional
illegal eavesdropping of this nature and
that's actually brings me to a question
I wanted to also bring up when you made
JFK the the movie did lead to real amid
an impact Congress passed the JFK act
and they cited your movie calling for
the opening of Records only rehab they
were ashamed okay but but it did make
that kind of an impact and an important
one because then we learned about
Operation Northwoods sometime later I
learned a lot of stuff from those five
but there have been reforms since
Snowden made his revelations there have
been some significant reforms so what do
you hope the impact could be from the
phenol I didn't do the film in that week
I'm not an activist sure you say
significant reforms certainly Snowden
would say they changed the drapes in the
room but Snowden you know like Ron Kovic
Ron Kovic was twenty about that time
when he got back from Vietnam is
paralyzed so it's a similar story in
some ways they're both Patriots very
strongly and they both in the in the
name of patriotism in the name of
defending the best interests of the
United States turn against the
government now the government at some
points betrays what we think the US is
about and it's going on and on and on
and if you many people still believe the
government and they believe that if you
make a deal with them you take a
contract and okay you're going to give
me my full security you're going to
protect me for the rest of my life
you're telling me that you're going to
do that and on return I will give you my
rights to free speech my rights
to a search and seizure and basically my
online my human rights yeah I'm going to
give them up to you because you're my
government and you're telling me you
want to make this contract with us
collectively and say hey we're going to
take care of all of you but you have to
do it all together that's what's
happening essentially it's a shitty
contract we've we're going alone with it
because that we basically have no we
don't really understand it and we don't
be doing security it's really important
that they protect us do they protect us
we're trying to show you through so many
incidents that have occurred that they
don't protect you they're spending
trillions of dollars and they don't
protect you they promise to yeah and the
real people who can protect you did
their job people like Benny and
and Snowden and they can do it at it
better than then the government is doing
it because the government is bundled it
you know one of the responses that we
often hear particularly since these
revelations have come to light regarding
surveillance thanks to Snowden is I have
nothing to hide so why should I care why
do you think the public should care I
really find that to be of juvenile
response and I think I've heard it if
people believe that and they do at a
younger age and I think that they're
open with it they're missing the point
of what life is about which you grow
into consciousness you grow into a more
expansive knowledge in the world and as
you get more complex in your thinking
and life becomes more and more
challenging I think you realize that you
have a lot to hide and you don't want
people to take your privacy and your
things that are crucial to the sense of
self and all through Western literature
that I know of this going back to the
Greeks I mean we've always respected the
idea of a self
Socrates brought it up Buddha has
brought it up in the East there is a
self and it's a very important aspect
your life it's the one thing you can
govern that you have some control over
there is a self and the self is what you
must expand the knowledge of the
consciousness of and when you this
government assumes that they have a
right to take yourself that self is just
broadcast it out of the world it's the
most despite to me it's a vile
defilement of everything that's sacred
in the world it's just you don't do that
this is a lucrative it's what I called
surveillance capitalism it's a big
business it's going to become bigger
data mining but we have no understanding
of what's going on in the world and I
don't think you marry me but kept in the
dark our news doesn't do any job except
for Vice and a few other places do
anything to help the American people
understand so this is a very dangerous
time and I think everyone senses it but
they don't know exactly what to do about
with the film you know this this
presents Snowden as you noted it
humanizes him do you think that the
public needs to have that do they need
to have a sympathetic character someone
who had a reason to do what he did in
order to get behind it
poor him well I don't think he was
wholly sympathetic because frankly I put
I repeat I was a dramatist it's my job
I'm not taking sides I walk in his shoes
empathetic means you're not sympathetic
or anti I didn't like Nixon I didn't
like Bush but I think I gave a portrait
that people could recognize yeah so you
have to remember the American public can
decide for itself the problem is they
don't have the right proper information
and they're not getting it so we got in
there and we got Snowden to talk and we
got we put our best minds to it when
took as much as we could from what three
journalists have done and the narrative
and tried to tell a story that's opened
it up a bit and it's not just about
Snowden it's about where we are in this
world what are we going to do about
surveillance in cyber warfare how have
your habits since meeting Snowden change
your own habits with regard to your cell
phone online communications I don't know
what to do using I don't know what to do
I use encryption sometimes and on this
movie we did
it's banal but it's I don't want it to
be intercepted I don't want it to be
listened to and it may be but what can
we do about it realistically you're an
expert at this what do you think
besides encryption what do you do
besides encryption I as you know in
order to use encryption somebody else
has to use encryption so it means
actually getting you know everyone
behind it it means getting government to
actually support it and not adversarial
what's I have Nolan yeah time you get
someone that is moving forward and
pushing it there's resistance it's scary
do you think Snowden will return to the
US has he I hope so but I don't think he
will in the present environment
neither presidential candidate neither
have talked about Snowden much less
surveillance where's the light at the
end of the tunnel
what's the hopeful outlook if there is
any that we have to realize that the
whole world is now into this position
and we have to come to a new peace
treaty like a nuclear arms treaty and
say look
if the United States gets past its
ideological hatred of of Russia and its
hatred of Iran and its hatred of fear of
China if we got beyond our fears and we
realize we're all in the same world
together I don't think it is what we
think it is I think we could all get
along and make a cyber treaty with the
world and we can have control of this
instead of letting that it's out of
control
make sure you cut it right for Christ's
sake