CAN I MAKE TWO POINTS ABOUT THAT?
YOU TALK ABOUT THAT WE HAVE JUST EXCEPTED IT.
I THINK THE MEDIA MAKES US THINK THAT WE HAVE ACCEPTED IT,
BECAUSE I REMEMBER WHEN THE IRAQ WAR WAS STARTING IT WAS THE
BIGGEST PROTEST IN THE WORLD THAT WE BARELY SAW IT ON
TELEVISION.
THE ANCHORS WOULD DRIVE THE PROCESS AND THEN NOT EVEN
MENTION IT.
I THINK THE PEOPLE ARE SICK OF AND THAT'S WHAT BERNIE
SANDERS IS ALL OF THAT.
I THINK PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE ARE SICK OF THE SHED
THAT WE SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING AND WE SEE THE PLUTOCRACY.
IF I COULD MAKE ONE MORE POINT ABOUT NUCLEAR WAR, BECAUSE
THIS GETS OVERLOOKED.
THIS WHOLE THING THAT SAYS, FORGET WHAT THE STAT WAS, OVER
50% OF AMERICANS THINK IT WAS NECESSARY.
BOMBING JAPAN WITH A NUCLEAR WEAPON TOTALLY NOT NECESSARY.
NOT ALL.
WE DID IT BECAUSE WE HAD THAT ERA'S VERSION OF GEORGE
BUSH THAT WE HAD A REDNECK UNEDUCATED GUYS A PRESIDENT
HE WANTED TO SHOW OFF A LITTLE.
WHO KNOWS WHY?
EVERYBODY TOLD HIM NOT TO DO IT.
GENERAL MACARTHUR TOLD HER NOT TO DO IT.
HE THOUGHT IT WAS BARBARIC.
HIS CHIEF OF STAFF TO PRESIDENT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT AND
HARRY TRUMAN, ADMIRAL WILLIAM DELAY HERE, THIS IS WHAT HE
SAID ABOUT THE NUCLEAR WAR.
IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE USE OF THIS BARBAROUS WEAPON AT
HIROSHIMA WAS IN NO MATERIAL ASSISTANCE IN OUR WAR
AGAINST JAPAN.
THE JAPANESE WERE ALREADY DEFEATED AND READY TO
SURRENDER BECAUSE OF THE EFFECTIVE SEE BLOCKADE IN
THE SUCCESSFUL BOMBING WITH CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS.
THE LETHAL POSSIBILITIES OF ATOMIC WARFARE IN THE
FUTURE ARE FRIGHTENING.
MY OWN FEELING WAS IN BEING THE FIRST TO USE IT, WE HAD
ADOPTED AN ETHICAL STANDARD COMPARABLE TO THE
BARBARIANS OF THE DARK AGES.
I WAS NOT TAUGHT TO MAKE WAR IN THAT FASHION AND WARS
CANNOT BE WON BY DESTROYING WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
THAT WAS THE CHIEF OF STAFF TO FDR AND TRUMAN.
I HAVE QUOTES FROM EISENHOWER AND A NUMBER OF OTHER MILITARY
ADVISERS DIET WAS THE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP THAT DECIDED TO
USE IT DIE WAS LESS ABOUT JAPAN A MORE ABOUT THE SOVIET UNION.
I HAVE HEARD ALSO THAT THE RUSSIANS, BY ENTERING THE
FRAY AGAINST JAPAN SPECIFICALLY MADE THEM PANIC THAT THEY
WERE ACTUALLY GOING TO COMMENT TAKE PIECES OF JAPAN, SO
THEY WERE MORE WORRIED ABOUT LOSING TERRITORY THAN THEY
WERE ABOUT LOSING CIVILIANS WHICH THEY HAD LOST ALREADY.
THE MAIN REASON FOR THE SURRENDER WAS THAT THE RUSSIANS
WERE COMING TO TAKE THEIR LAND AS OPPOSED TO CIVILIAN
CASUALTIES WHICH BY THE WAY AND THE FIREBOMBING OF TOKYO, THEY
ALREADY HAD AN ENORMOUS CASUALTIES.
THE FLIPSIDE THAT IS WHAT I HAVE NEVER BEEN CONVINCED OF IS IF WE
DIDN'T NEED THE NUKES AND THEY DID NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE,
PEOPLE SAY, THEY WOULD'VE SURRENDERED ANYWAY.
BUT WE DROP ON ON HIROSHIMA AND THEY STILL DIDN'T SURRENDER.
I THINK IT IS REALLY RELEVANT TO HEAR JIMMY READ THAT AND
I THINK IN RETROSPECT, IT IS A SHAMEFUL THING THAT WE ARE
THE ONLY COUNTRY TO USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
I THINK IT IS UNFAIR TO PRESUME THAT EVERY REASON FOR IT AT
THE TIME WAS NOT BASED IN SOME BELIEVE THAT IT WAS THE
QUICKEST WAY TO IN THE WAR.
I THINK THERE IS AMOUNT OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE TO
SUGGEST THAT.
IT MAY HAVE BEEN THE WRONG DECISION, BUT THEY BELIEVED
EARNESTLY THAT THIS WAR WHICH CONSUMED EVERYBODY'S LIVES FROM
1940 WENT ON THAT THAT WAS THE QUICKEST WAY TO END IT.
WHAT I'VE HEARD, AND WHAT I'VE READ AND PEOPLE SAY
THAT THAT WASN'T THE INTENT.
THE INTENT TO DROP THOSE BOMBS WASN'T TO WIN THAT WAR BECAUSE
ALL OF HIS MILITARY ADVISERS WERE TELLING THEM THAT JAPAN
WAS LOOKING FOR A WELL ANYWAY THEY JUST NEEDED TO SAVE FACE.
THE REASON THEY DIDN'T SURRENDER AFTER THAT FIRST ONE IS
BECAUSE THEIR EMPEROR WAS A MANIAC.
THAT IS WHY.
HE NEEDED TO FIND A WAY TO SAVE FACE AND HE COULDN'T FIND IT.
THEY HIT IT AGAIN AND THAT IS WHEN ñ MY POINT IS THAT THEY
WERE ALREADY LOOKING FOR A WAY, THE REASON WE DROP THOSE
BOMBS WAS TO SEND A MESSAGE TO RUSSIA.
IT WASN'T TO WIN THE WAR WITH JAPAN.
IT WAS TO SEND A MESSAGE TO RUSSIA, LOOK WHAT WE GOT.
THAT'S WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT AND THAT COULDN'T BE A MORE
HORRIBLE REASON TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
IT'S A BARBARIC.
LET ME JUST SAY, I THINK THERE ARE NUMBER OF FACTORS.
DID TRUMAN WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE TO RUSSIA?
MOST HISTORIANS AGREE THAT YES HE DID.
WAS AT THE SOLE REASON HE DID IT?
THAT IS FAR FROM CLEAR.
THERE'S ANOTHER INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE WHICH ACTUALLY BEEN
YOU AND I HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT BUT I READ IN YOUR DAD'S BOOK.
BEN'S DAD SERVED IN WORLD WAR II, AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
SERVING IN WORLD WAR II WERE UNIVERSITY THRILLED THAT WE
DROP THE BOMB.
DO YOU KNOW WHY?
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT HAVE DIED.
WE WERE GOING TO CENTER SOLDIERS OVER THERE AND, JIMMY YOU
MADE AN EXCELLENT POINT, THAT IS WHAT SOLDIERS ARE FOR.
RATHER THAN STILL KILLING CIVILIANS.
BUT IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE SOLDIERS, OR YOU ARE THE
FAMILY OF ONE OF THE SOLDIERS, THERE WERE A LOT OF
AMERICANS WHO WERE LIKE LET'S WRAP THIS UP.
A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE DIED.
MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS HAVE DIED.
WE DON'T WANT ANY MORE OF OUR GUYS TO DIE.
JIMMY, WE WERE GOING TO INVADE JAPAN.
SO MANY PEOPLE WERE GOING TO DIE IN A BLOODIED FIGHT.
THAT'S THE PROPAGANDA FOR WHY WE DID IT.
THEIR 10,000 HISTORY BOOKS BY PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIANS ON THIS.
I HAVE IT, YOU MAKE A POINT.
DO WE WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE TO RUSSIA?
IF THAT HUNDRED AND OUT ALL THAT IS TERRIBLE BECAUSE YOU CAN
SEND THAT MESSAGE BY HAVING A FOREIGN MINISTER ME AND
TAKEN TO A TEST SITE AND SAY THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE AND WE
CAN DROP IT ON JAPAN.
I'M JUST SAYING THAT OUR CONVENTIONAL WISDOM, I
UNDERSTAND.
THERE WERE GUYS ON TROOP SHIPS.
WE WOULD HAVE INVADED IF WE DIDN'T DROP IT THAT WE WERE
NOT GOING TO NOT INVADE JAPAN.
WE WERE TRYING TO WIN THE WAR AND THAT IS A WAY TO WIN IT.
WHY DON'T WE JUST DROP A NUKE IN IRAQ OR AFGHANISTAN?
IT WAS A TERRIBLE DECISION DIE WAS THE WRONG THING TO DO.
WE RECOGNIZE NOW THAT IT WAS THE WRONG THING TO DO, BUT AS
CENK UYGUR SAID, WE ARE ON THE SAME PAGE AS TO THE
ULTIMATE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE DECISION, NOT IN THE SAME PLACE
AS TO WHAT WAS IN THE MINDS OF EVERYONE MAKING A DECISION.
WE CAN DISAGREE ON THAT.
AT LEAST WE HAVE BEEN ON THAT THAT YOUR DAD MIGHT HAVE DIED.
MY DAD WAS NOT SAID TO GO BUT MY UNCLE WAS.
THAT'S LESS RELEVANT.
YOUR COUSINS I DON'T CARE AS MUCH ABOUT.
THE IMPORTANT THING OBVIOUSLY, NUKES ARE
PARTICULARLY SCARY BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGY AND THE
LONG-TERM RAMIFICATIONS OF THEM, BUT THE TERRIBLE THING
ABOUT THESE BOMBINGS WAS THE INTENTIONAL TARGETING AND
DESTRUCTION OF CIVILIANS WHICH IS TERRIBLE WHETHER IT IS
FIRE BOTTOM ñ BOMBING WHETHER IT'S CARPET BOMBING OR DRONES,
IT'S THE WILLINGNESS TO KILL CIVILIANS TO COME IS YOUR GOALS.
THAT IS A TERRORIST DO.
WE HAVE TO KILL SOME CIVILIANS AND BABIES AND
OLD PEOPLE, WHATEVER.
WE HAVE A GOAL.
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DID.
CIVILIANS GET KILLED IN WAR AND THOSE SAME MILITARY PEOPLE
YOU TALK TO WOULD SAY CIVILIANS GET KILLED IN WAR AND SOMETIMES
WAS NECESSARY, BUT THE QUESTION IS HOW CALLOUS ARE YOU ABOUT A?
AND HOW MANY?
HAVE YOU KILLED 10 CIVILIANS AND IS IN A WAR.
IF YOU KILL 1 MILLION, IT IS WORSE.
THE FIREBOMBINGS IN DRESDEN AND TOKYO, THOSE STORIES ARE
HORRIBLE.
THEY LIVE THOUSANDS AND TOKYO ON FIRE WITH CHILDREN PLAYING
IN THE FOUNTAINS.
ACCORDING TO THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE DURING JOHNSON, HE
SAID THAT WAS A WAR CRIME.
LET ME END ON THOSE TWO POINTS.
MCNAMARA WHO THEN WENT ON TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS IN VIETNAM,
A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THAT HE WAS A STATISTICIAN FOR
HOW MANY JAPANESE GUYS CIVILIANS TO KILL FOR THEM TO BEND
AND HOW MANY BOMBS WE WOULD HAVE TO DROP AND HE WAS THE ONE
WHO WAS IN SOME WAYS ORCHESTRATING THE
FIREBOMBING OF TOKYO, AND HE SAID LATER IN HIS CAREER IN
A DOCUMENTARY, IF WE HAD LOST, OF COURSE WE WOULD'VE BEEN TRIED
FOR WAR CRIMES BECAUSE WE WERE KILLING ALL OF THEIR CIVILIANS.
ON THE OTHER HAND, IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME.
TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DIED IN WORLD WAR II.
IT WAS SO MUCH BLOODLETTING THAT EVERY OPTION LED TO HUNDREDS OF
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DYING, INCLUDING SUMMER MOSTLY
CIVILIANS.
IT IS EASY TO LOOK AT IN HINDSIGHT AND SAY THEY SHOULD'VE
DONE THIS OR THAT, AND I SHARE A LOT OF YOUR PASSION ON IT.
I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A NUCLEAR BOMB
HITS.
A LOT OF PEOPLE MAKE IT LIKE IT IS NO BIG DEAL.
KNOW, WHEN YOU DROP THE BOMB EVERYBODY IN THE AREA,
BABIES, GRANDMOTHERS, LIT ON FIRE.
INCINERATED.
INCLUDING OUR POWS.
ALL INCLUDING OUR GUYS.
KOREANS CONSTRUED CONSCRIPTED TO WORK THE JAPANESE,
ESSENTIALLY ENSLAVED.
30,000 OF THEM.
IN A WORLD WHERE WE DON'T HAVE WERE KILLING TENS OF
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DROPPING A NUKE IS TOTALLY OUT OF
CONTEXT AND UNTHINKABLE.
IN A WORLD WHERE THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE DYING ALL OF THE TIME, AND WE HAVE TO IN THIS WAR,
IT IS A DIFFERENT WORLD DIET DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT, BUT
IT WAS A DIFFERENT CONTEXT.
20 MILLION RUSSIANS.
PEOPLE OFTEN FORGET THAT IN AFTERMATH IN CHINA OF COURSE.
THE REASON WE NEED TO DRIVE HOME AS THEY ARE POLLUTION
POLITICIANS TODAY THAT THINK ALL THE PROGRESS WE'VE HAD
SINCE THEN IS BAD.
IS BAD FOR US AND WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THOSE TECHNIQUES
STUCK FIREBOMBING IS FINE.
THEY ARE YOUR ENEMY THEY'RE NOT AMERICANS WHO THE HELL CARES.
THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO REITERATE THAT IT IS THE
BAD AS DRONE CASUALTIES ON WE NEED TO STOP THAT.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE USING TARGETED
WEAPONS.
THEY THINK WE SHOULD JUST LET LOOSE AND GO CRAZY.
THEY ARE OPERATING IN THE GOVERNMENT NOW NOT 75 YEARS AGO.