♪ ♪ ♪
>> Stephen: HEY, WELCOME BACK, EVERYBODY.
MY GUESTS TONIGHT ARE THE CO-HOSTS OF SHOWTIME'S "THE
CIRCUS."
PLEASE WELCOME, JOHN HEILEMANN, MARK McKINNON, AND ALEX WAGNER.
HI YOU THREE, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU, WE'RE KICKING IT, KICKING IT HARD.
>> Stephen: YOU GUYS, THE LAST TIME WE TALKED TOGETHER WAS
ELECTION NIGHT, AT THE END OF WHICH, WE REALLY DID NOT KNOW
EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING ON.
NOW WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON.
AND IT'S EXTRAORDINARILY HARROWING.
I KNOW YOU GUYS WERE-- ALL THREE OF YOU WERE IN D.C. THIS WEEK.
WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE THERE WITH 15,000 NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS ON
THE STREETS?
>> I MEAN, I'LL TELL YOU, AS SOMEONE WHO GREW UP IN
WASHINGTON, D.C., I HAVE NEVER, EVER SEEN THE TOWN LIKE THAT.
I HAVE TRAVELED TO PLACES, YOU KNOW, ON THE CHAD SUDAN BORDER
AND THE THAI-BURMA BORDER TO PLACES WITH VERY UNSTABLE
GOVERNMENTS AND IT TURNS OUT OURS IS JUST THE SAME.
I MEAN, IT REALLY FEELS LIKE THE STABILITY THAT WE HAVE ONCE
KNOWN AS A COUNTRY IN TERMS OF OUR GOVERNMENT IS GONE.
I-- I DO REALLY THINK THAT, LIKE A LOT OF THE SECURITY MEASURES
YOU SEE NOW, SOME OF THEM ARE GOING TO BE PERMANENT.
I REMEMBER WALKING DOWN PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE, DRIVING
DOWN PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE WHEN I
WAS GROWING UP, THAT IS NO LONGER HAPPENING.
AND IN THE SAME WAY I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THE CAPITOL IS
GOING CHANGE A LOT IN TERMS OF ACCESSIBILITY AND WHAT WE EXPECT
IN TERMS OF PRECAUTIONS AND DANGER IN AND AROUND THE
NATION'S CAPITOL.
>> THAT'S A GREAT POINT, ALEX.
IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS-- I DIDN'T GROW UP THERE,
BUT SINCE I'VE BEEN THERE, THE THING YOU LOVE ABOUT IT IS IT'S
SO ACCESSIBLE.
YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE.
YOU CAN GO RIGHT UP BY THE WHITE HOUSE.
YOU CAN GO RIGHT UP TO THE CAPITOL.
YOU COULDN'T EVEN GET TO THE LINCOLN MONUMENT YESTERDAY.
>> Stephen: THE CLOSEST THING TO COMPARE THIS TO IN TERMS OF A
SHOW OF MILITARY FORCE IS AFTER 9/11.
HOW WOULD YOU COMPARE TO WHAT WASHINGTON FELT LIKE AFTER 9/11?
>> WELL, BY THEN, I HAD FLED TO NEW YORK CITY.
BUT I STILL HAVE FAMILY LIVING IN THE DISTRICT.
AND THERE'S-- YOU KNOW, I DON'T MEAN TO BE HEAVY HANDED ABOUT
IT, BUT THERE'S A REAL SENSE OF A LOSS OF INNOCENCE.
YOU KNOW, YOU THINK BACK TO THOSE DAYS, AND WE TOOK FOR
GRANTED, I THINK, OUR SENSE OF SAFETY AND OUR SENSE OF, YOU
KNOW, OUR PLACE IN THE WORLD AND OUR LEADERSHIP IN THE WORLD AND
OUR INVINCIBILITY AS AMERICANS.
AND I ABSOLUTELY THINK THE SAME THING HAS HAPPENED NOW.
IT'S REALLY AN A, B, C, D, MOMENT FOR THE COUNTRY IN TERMS
OF WHAT WE CAN EXPECT FROM AMERICAN GOVERNANCE.
>> I WOULD SAY EVEN IF YOU COMPARE TO BOTH WASHINGTON AND
NEW YORK IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, YOU KNOW, NEW
YORK WAS RELATIVELY BACK TO NORMAL WITHIN A MONTH OF 9/11.
I MEAN, I REMEMBER, LIKE-- BY THE TIME-- A MONTH AFTER 9/11,
LIKE, U2 CAME TO TOWN AND PLAYED THE FIRST BIG GIG AT MADISON
SQUARE GARDEN.
YOU MIGHT REMEMBER THAT.
IT WAS A BIG DEAL.
IT NEVER FELT LIKE THE CITY WAS LOCKED DOWN.
IF YOU WERE MIDTOWN, UPPER WEST SIDE, EAST SIDE, YOU DIDN'T FEEL
A HEAVY MILITARY PRESENCE, AND THAT WAS TRUE IN WASHINGTON,
TOO.
THERE WERE CHANGES AFTER 9/11, BUT YOU NEVER FELT LIKE THE
GREEN ZONE WHICH IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE IN WASHINGTON RIGHT
NOW.
LITERALLY, THE THINGS THAT GOT ANNOUNCED TODAY, THE SECURING OF
THE PERIMETER AND HOW WIDE IT IS GOING TO BE AND THE
MILITARIZATION OF IT.
IT LITERALLY IS A GREEN ZONE PEOPLE ARE NOTING THAT IN THE
COVERAGE, THIS REALLY IS LIKE A ROCK.
I HAVE NEVER SEEN PEOPLE IN THE DISTRICT AS ON EDGE ABOUT WHAT
MIGHT HAPPEN OVER THE COMING DAYS BETWEEN NOW AND NEXT
WEDNESDAY.
I'VE NEVER SEEN PEOPLE MORE ON EDGE, AND THAT INCLUDES AFTER
9/11.
>> WELL, THE BIG DIFFERENCE, TOO, IS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS
CHILLING AT THAT TIME, BUT WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE OVER
THERE DOING SOMETHING TO US.
NOW WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE RIGHT HERE DOING SOMETHING TO
US.
>> Stephen: MARK, I KNOW YOU ATTENDED THE PRESIDENT'S RALLY
AT THE ECLIPSE BEFORE THEY MARCHED OVER.
THAT WAS THE-- WHAT WAS THE FEELING NACROWD?
YOU KNOW, TELL ME WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE THERE WHILE THE
SPEECHES WERE BEING MADE?
>> WELL, IT WAS INCREDIBLE, STEPHEN.
I MEAN, IT FELT LIKE BEING IN A SEA OF HUMAN NITROGLYCERIN.
I HAVE BEEN AT A LOT OF TRUMP RALLIES.
THIS WAS DIFFERENT.
PEOPLE WERE NOT ONLY ANIMATED.
THEY WERE ANGRY AND ON EDGE.
ALL IT TOOK WAS SOMEBODY TO SHAKE AND COMBUST THIS THING AND
THE PRESIDENT CAME OUT AND DID EXACTLY THAT.
I WOULD HAVE BEEN SURPRISED IF PEOPLE HADN'T GONE AND DONE
SOMETHING VIOLENT AND BREAK THE LAW OR CREATE THE KIND OF
CATASTROPHE AND TRAGEDY THAT WE SAW.
YOU KNOW, THE FACT IS YOU THINK ABOUT HOW DIABOLICAL THIS WHOLE
THING WAS, AND HOW UNSURPRISING THE OUTCOME WAS.
YOU SAID BEFORE THE ELECTION, YOU SAID, IF I WIN, GREAT, IF I
DON'T, IT WAS STOLEN.
THAT WAS THE MESSAGE HE SOWED TO ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO SHOWED UP
AT THE CAPITOL AND HE SAID VERY CLEARLY, LET'S GO TO THE
CAPITOL.
AND IF YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY BACK, DON'T SHOW WEAKNESS."
WHAT THE HELL DID YOU EXPECT?
I WAS NOT SURPRISED.
I WAS SHOCKED AT WHAT THEY DID.
BUT I COULDN'T COMMUNICATE WITH ANY OF MY COLLEAGUES BECAUSE IT
WAS LIKE BEING AT A HUGE CONCERT, SO WE COULDN'T GET ANY
CELL PHONE COVERAGE OUT.
AND I WAS WORRIED AS EVERYBODY WENT TO THE CAPITOL.
I WAS WORRIED ABOUT WHERE MY COLLEAGUES WERE.
AND I DISCOVERED HEILEMANN WAS PRETTY CLOSE TO IT.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE A CLIP HERE, JOHN.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE SURE WHAT WE'RE ABOUT TO RUN.
YOU CAN SET THIS UP?
>> YEAH, I HAD BEEN-- I HAD BEEN AT A COMFORTABLE DISTANCE
THINKING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE KNEW THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE THE
JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS, WHICH WAS GOING TO BE KIND OF A
FARCICAL ATTEMPT AT A COUP.
WE KNEW THERE WERE GOING TO BE THESE OBJECTIONS TO THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE CERTIFICATION, TED CRUZ, JOSH HAWLEY, THERE
WOULD BE THESE DEBATES, THERE WOULD BE THESE VOTES, THEY WOULD
GET VOTE DOWN.
AND I WAS OVER IN GEORGETOWN WATCHING ON TELEVISION EXPECTING
TO COVER IT THAT WAY.
AND THEN WHEN THE RIOTS STARTED, I GOT IN A CAR PRETTY FAST WITH
MY CREW AND DROVE UP TO THE-- THAT SIDE OF THE CAPITOL WHERE
THE SUPREME COURT IS AND GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND THEN WENT
STRAIGHT IN.
>> Stephen: JIM, LET'S ROLL THIS CLIP.
♪ ♪ >> THIS IS A SAD, PATHETIC
AFTERMATH OF THIS UTTER ( BLEEP ) SHOW.
>> FOUR MORE YEARS!
( EXPLOSION ).
>> Stephen: JOHN, WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO BE IN THAT CROWD?
>> DISCONCERTING.
AND, I MEAN, WE HAD GONE AROUND THE SIDE OF THE CAPITOL AT THAT
POINT TO WHERE THE BIGGEST CROWD ON THE OUTSIDE WAS STILL
GATHERED.
AND AS MARK SAID, THE HEIGHT OF THE RIOT HAD ENDED AT THAT
POINT, BUT THE CAPITOL WAS NOT SECURE AT THAT POINT SO A LOT OF
RIOT POLICE WERE JUST ARRIVING.
AS EVERYBODY KNOWS, THE NATIONAL GUARD WERE VERY LATE TO THE
SCENE, AND A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE LOITERING AROUND.
SOE OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN INSIDE WERE ON THE OUTSIDE, AND
SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE WERE STILL TRYING TO GET
IN.
IN THAT CROWD, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT, WE ALL KNOW HAVING
COVERED VARIOUS TRUMP RALLIES OVER THE YEARS, THERE IS NOT
JUST A LOT OF HOSTILITY TOWARDS THE MEDIA, THEY'RE VERY TUNED IN
TO SEEING PEOPLE WITH CAMERAS.
THERE'S A LOT OF IMMEDIATE LIKE, "WHO ARE YOU WITH?
ARE YOU FAKE NEWS?
WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?" IF I'M TRYING TO DO WHAT I DO
AND DO A RUNNING COMMENTARY GOING THROUGH THE CROWD AND
MAKING OBSERVATIONS I'M ALSO CONSTANTLY LOOKING AROUND TO
MAKE SURE WHEN PEOPLE ARE LEANING IN TO LISTEN TO WHAT I'M
SAYING THAT I'M NOT SAYING SOMETHING THAT WILL LEAD DOWN A
BAD PATH.
I WAS TRYING TO DO THE JOURNALISTIC THING AND REPORT ON
IT IS BUT TRY TO MAKE SURE MY CREW AND I DIDN'T GET INTO A
MELEE, AND THE TIGHTER THE CROWD IS, THE MORE YOU REALIZED IF
THEY TURN ON YOU THERE MIGHT NOT BE A WAY OUT.
WE WERE VERY ATTUNED TO ALL OF THAT.
THAT SHOT OR FLASHBANG WENT OFF-- I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT IT
WAS.
IT DIDN'T SOUND IN THE END LIKE A GUNSHOT.
I THINK IT WAS A FLASHBANG THROWN BY RIOT POLICE BUT AT THE
MOMENT YOU DON'T KNOW AND AS YOU CAN SEE, I SHUDDERED THERE AND
GOT OUT AS QUICK AS I COULD.
AS YOU COULD SEE ON MY FACE AS I WALKED UP, THERE'S SO MUCH TO
SAY ABOUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN EXPERIENCING THE LAST WEEK OR SO
AND THE STORY GETS WORSE AND WORSE BY THE DAY, BY THE HOUR,
THE MORE WE KNOW ABOUT THIS, ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF
COLLABORATION, REPUBLICANS WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN-- THE
CONVENTIONAL WISDOM AMONG A LOT OF DEMOCRATS AND SOME
REPUBLICANS THAT THIS WAS AN INSIDE JOB.
JUST THE EXTENT OF THE VIOLENCE, THE DEGREE-- THE REPORTING NOW
WE KNOW THE RIOTERS WERE THERE TO KIDNAP, KILL, ASSASSINATE
POLITICAL LEADERS.
EVEN IN THE MOMENT BEFORE I KNEW ANY OF THAT, IT WAS
HEARTBREAKING TO SEE THIS HAPPEN TO THE CAPITOL, A PLACE I HAVE
BEEN, YOU KNOW, VISITING AND COVERING SINCE 1980-- I WONDER
ON CPITOL HILL WHEN I FIRST GOT OUT OF COLLEGE, 1987.
TO SEE THAT SPECTACLE THERE, I WAS ON THE-- THE BRIG TEARS FOR
MOST OF THE SESSION AS WE WALKED AROUND, AND IN A LOT OF WAYS I
FEEL LIKE THAT RIGHT NOW.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A BREAK.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH MORE MARK McKINNON, ALEX WAGNER,
AND JOHN HEILEMANN FROM "THE CIRCUS."