For the pbs newshour, I am on
none was -- I am amna nawaz.
Judy: Joining me now to discuss
today's events is Ben Ginsberg,
who was one of this morning's
witnesses.
He's a longtime Republican
elections attorney who has
worked with the Republican
national committee, or RNC, and
multiple presidential campaigns.
And Cynthia miller-idriss, who
runs the polarization and
extremism research & innovation
lab at American university.
Welcome to the newshour, to both
of you.
I should was say, welcome back.
I want to ask you both, what
stood out for you at these two
hours of testimony and
presentation by the committee?
Cynthia: I think it was really
clear, as it was on Thursday,
that the election fraud claims
were baseless.
That this was a massive
disinformation.
And that we are going to move
forward with a very common
narrative from many witnesses
that that is the case.
I think what stands out is that
that is absolutely the case and
that the American public should
feel confident in that
bipartisan set of witnesses
designing that.
Judy: And Ben Ginsberg, we were
there, you testified, from your
own experience, why did you want
to be there today?
Ben: Because this is so
important.
What today's testimony brought
out was that people in Donald
Trump's campaign, his most
trusted campaign workers, told
him the charges of fraud and
rigged election was not correct,
that they could not prove that,
that there was not evidence.
The president of the united
States, ripping the fabric of
what holds our country in the
election system together, is
tremendously important to get
out that story.
Judy: And at one point, in the
question-and-answer period, you
are asked about the fact that
you have worked with campaigns
that have challenged aspects of
election results.
But that this one was taken to a
different level.
Ben: It was taken to a different
level.
When folks like me get called in
to do elections, it is because
the elections really are close.
This election was not really
close.
2000 in Florida was 537 votes.
That's close.
Donald Trump's most narrow
margin in all of the key states
was over 10,000 votes.
You don't make up that many
votes in any recount.
Now, the country continues to go
through the trauma of the fake
allegations of our elections
being rigged.
That comes at a cost to the
country.
Judy: Cynthia miller-idriss, you
talked about what the committee
was trying to do, this
methodical presentation of
witness after witness.
Many of them right in the white
house, the former president's
attorney general.
How good a job are they doing of
getting that story, the
narrative out there?
Cynthia: I think they are doing
a very good job of getting the
story out.
The question is, is anybody
listening who was not already
convinced of that story?
And I think with midterm
elections coming up, with
another presidential election
right around the corner after
that, I think we really have to
be thinking as much as we are
about the story we are telling,
we need to be thinking that much
about how do we prevent people
from being persuaded by that
kind of disinformation again in
future elections?
And how do we restore the trust
in the election system that has
been so irrevocably damaged at
this point by people who no
longer.
.
Trust the system Judy: And we
know that is what the committee
would like to have happen as a
result.
We will see how much -- what
they are doing leads to that.
Ben Ginsberg, as someone who has
worked with the Republican party
for many years, you obviously
know a lot of Republicans.
Are they likely to be persuaded
by this case the committee is
making?
Ben: I believe the committee's
case may eventually persuaded
Republicans that is in their own
self interest to put faith back
in elections.
What I think some Republicans
are losing sight of is that once
the voters, the people, don't
have faith in elections, that is
going to hurt them when they win
elections as well.
For example, the imaginary game
to play is supposed Donald Trump
runs for reelection and wins.
Do we really think the Democrats
are not going to behave in a
similar fashion, now that the
playbook has been written, to
protest that election?
You now have a situation where
30% of the country does not have
faith in our elections.
But that really does rub both
ways and impacts and poisons the
well for both parties.
Judy: Is that something, Cynthia
miller-idriss, that this
committee's work can address
ahead of time, to head it off?
Cynthia: I think it is one part
of a bigger set of things that
needs to happen.
We have to remember, the people
who are watching this are not
just voters whose minds are made
up, but kids in history classes,
in civics classes, kids who will
be voting in the 2022-2024
elections who want to understand
what this older generation has
done, and want to believe in
very optimistic ways that they
can make a difference.
I think it is important to
document it, even if this does
not persuade people.
It has to be done for the
record, for the museums that
will document it in the future,
and for teenagers who are
watching and college students
watching today who are going to
be tomorrow's voters and
hopefully make different
decisions.
Judy: It matters for history.
I hear you, Ben Ginsberg, saying
it also matters right now in the
immediate future.
Our elections in this country,
we hold them every year, in some
parts of the country, but the
major elections every four
years.
Congressional elections, every
two years.
Ben: Yes, it really is
important.
Donald Trump sort of broke the
fabric, violated a really
important norm in our country in
the selection.
Any candidate has the right to
bring contests and recounts an
litigation as allowed by the
different states laws.
What is important to remember is
that Donald Trump availed
himself of that.
Filed more than 60 cases with
more than 180 separate counts.
When that was adjudicated, any
candidate has an obligation to
accept the decisions of the
courts that they went to in the
first place.
The committee's work can help
point out that particular
situation.
And people of both parties
should realize it cannot be
reviewed.
Judy: And remind everybody that
this has never happened before.
Ben: Never happened before.
Judy: This is a first.
I keep coming back, Cynthia
miller-idriss, how is it that so
many people can accept what is
demonstrably false?
Cynthia: That is the
million-dollar question.
I say million-dollar because we
also have invested, since
January 6, billions of dollars
already in just added security
for the capitol alone.
What we are investing in the
securitization of this country,
the militarization of our
bridges every time we have an
inauguration now, we need to be
investing that scale at the
level of civic education, media
literacy, digital literacy, to
help the public understand that
at every level, how to
understand source integrity and
recognize disinformation and not
be persuaded by it.
Judy: Finally, Ben Ginsberg,
what do you think it is the
committee needs to do in coming
days to complete this case?
Ben: Part of the picture that
they have to draw, that they are
trying to draw, is the exact
role of Donald J. Trump.
And how involved he was in the
insurrection.
Congresswoman Janie laid out --
congresswoman Cheney laid out
the plan that they believed
Donald Trump was carrying out.
They need to fill in the dots.
Judy: You will see in coming
days.
More hearings to go.
Ben Ginsberg, Cynthia
miller-idriss, we thank you
both.
Ben: Thank you.
Cynthia: Thank you.
Judy: And a reminder that day
three of the hearings is this
Wednesday, that begins at 10:00
A.M. Eastern.
We will have live coverage here
on pbs, that is on-air and
online.