Alright, we've got Denise in Portland. How are you?
Good, how are you?
M: We're doing well. J: Hi, Denise.
What's up?
D: Well, I'm on a Facebook, it's called "The Holy Bible Page"
and one of the atheists challenged us to call in, so I did.
I am a Christian and make no bones about it.
J: Okay. And what can we do for you?
D: I just called in to chat.
J: Not anything in particular? D: No, well ...
D: It's truly disheartening how many of the atheists are former believers.
And I realize that.
But I don't think they realize what's going to happen to them in the end.
M: I think you're right.
M: I don't think any of us knows what's going to happen.
D: I believe in a literal hell. Where are they going to end up when they die?
D: Have you thought about it?
J: You say you believe in a literal hell? D: Yes, I do.
J: And you think that we atheists deserve to go there.
D: No. J: We don't?
J: Then how come ... Ma'am? D: I don't want anybody to go.
J: You believe there's a hell.
And you believe the atheists are going to go there.
Because why? You guys are going to send us there?
D: No. They send themselves there by rejecting Jesus as their saviour.
J: No, that's silly. I am choosing right now I don't want to go to hell.
So now your god has the option of either sending me or not.
D: Jesus has thrown you a life preserver. That's why he's called the saviour.
You guys have been ridiculous enough to reject it.
M: Where did hell come from?
D: It's in the bible. He spoke about it many times, I believe in it. If you ...
M: No, no. Denise, a question: Did god create hell?
D: God originally created hell for Satan and the demons. [Not for us.]
M: Sure. So, why did god decide to start sending people there?
D: He doesn't send them to hell. You guys send yourselves.
J: We don't. That's nonsense. If we have the choice, we choose not to go.
Now the ball's back in gods court. If he wants to send us, he can. [Will he?]
D: You send yourselves. J: No, we don't! That's ridiculous.
D: You send yourselves. J: No, that's ridiculous.
M: It doesn't matter how many times you keep repeating this.
D: You keep repeating your stuff!
M: I tried something else: Did god create hell?
Then he's ultimately responsible, correct? Does he not make the rules?
Denise, did things not happen according to your god's will?
Does he not already know ... D: He is everybody's god, [not just mine].
M: No, not my god. I don't even believe he exists.
But in any case, I don't care.
I'm trying get to the source of the problem here.
It's this: you were saying, Jesus threw you a life preserver.
As for [me], within the bounds of your theology, Jesus kicked me overboard.
D: He didn't kick you overboard. M: Sure he did.
M: Did your god create hell? Yes or no? D: Yes.
M: Did your god create the rules of the universe,
including the criteria by which souls are judged?
D: Yes.
M: Does anything happen that doesn't [follow] your god's will?
D: No.
M: Then your god is ultimately responsible for everything,
including the people who he sends to hell.
D: That's so messed up!
M: Yeah, that logic stuff is a real pain in the ass.
D: When you reject him, that's the dumbest thing you can possibly do.
D: That's why he's called the saviour.
J: And I have a question. What are we being saved from, exactly?
D: You're being saved from eternal damnation, hell. Hell.
D: Have you ever been a Christian? J: Yes, I was.
D: For how many years? J: Until I was about 21, 22.
D: What happened?
J: I thought about whether there was any reason
to believe any of that stuff.
And it scared me.
Because I had been raised to believe in a kind and loving god
but to fear this kind and loving god.
Every time it occurred to me to question,
my fear got in the way.
Eventually, I said to myself, if god is really kind and loving,
he's not going to mind me using my brain that he gave me,
to think clearly, carefully and rationally about what I've been taught
and to make my own decision.
The moment that I realized
a kind and loving god was not to be feared
when I'm considering rethinking my beliefs,
that gave me the freedom to think clearly about my beliefs.
Within a minute, I realized this is all nonsense, I'm an atheist.
M: And I go one step further here.
Even if I were to concede your, [I think], ridiculous framing
that god doesn't send people, they send themselves to hell.
Even if I were to accept that --
I won't even necessarily go to the [valid] mafia boss analogy --
my point of view is this:
You have a being, according to your theology,
that can possibly prevent people from having to suffer eternally.
And he, instead of being good, just, caring and actually doing that,
is offering a kind of bribe.
The bribe is, you need to believe without evidence
and you need to worship, adhere and follow my commands.
That's not love. That is not ...
M: That is not an exercise of love. D: He got on the cross to save you.
D: He went through hell. M: He didn't die!
D: He was the one that pays the price. Who rejects him, that's their decision.
M: Then why the fuck did you call?
D: Excuse me?
D: You can't be a lot more civil to someone that calls in
without using filthy language?
M: Filthy language? Hang on. First of all, you called to tell us ...
D: This conversation is over. God bless you. I hope you see the light.
He is the only way. Good bye. M: Are you done ...
J: Yeah, she's hanging up.
M: I used a word that [hurt] Denise's feelings.
It doesn't surprise me --
while we'll have to put a little disclaimer on this particular issue --
that somebody who is so muddled in their thinking
and so afraid of the irrational
would give magic powers to words.
It's four letters, phonemes, they don't have any magical powers,
it's a way of expressing an exclamation mark.
You called, and when things got too heated,
you tried to do this, "Well, it's all up to you guys,
and if you reject him, that's your responsibility etc."
Which was your way of giving up.
All you wanted was call in, state your opinion and move on.
When I asked you, why the fuck did you call,
I wasn't cursing you out,
I was exclaiming that this is absurd, for you to call in and do this.
To call in and pretend like you're going to defend your beliefs,
and when they're challenged to a point that you can't defend them,
you cry that your feelings got hurt
because somebody used a word that was scary.
It's no wonder you're still stuck in this mindset
of being afraid of fantasy,
if one little word sends you screaming
"the poor atheists have beaten up on me
and are saying offensive things!"
J: Can we spend a little time on "we send ourselves to hell"?
That is, I'm holding a gun to your head,
telling you to give me 100 dollars,
don't make me shoot you.
That's what it is.
That's their arrangement.
No, if Matt refuses to give me 100 dollars,
he did not commit suicide.
M: It's why I've used the mafia boss analogy before.
It's why I asked if you thought your god created hell.
Because the mafia boss creates the scenario where,
hey, we can protect you, but you've got to pay,
and when somebody breaks my thumbs for not paying,
it wasn't my choice.
You're saying my choice is to pay or get my ass kicked.
And in your theology my choice is
to accept something [impossible] because it's irrational without evidence
and then go the step further
of becoming worshipful and adherent to this fantasy.
Well, I won't do it.
Because I see what happens when people [do that].
Even if I could convince myself to accept the delusion,
it is harmful, immoral, and your theology is immoral.
What you're saying about there being a literal hell
and god gets to wash his hands of it. It's all completely immoral.
You have lost your own sense of dignity, self-respect,
humanity and morality.