Hello and welcome to Stumped, your intercontinental hits of news,
features, and debate from the quirky world of cricket.
I'm Alison Mitchell in London, where I've been making the most of some
autumn sunshine. This time of year, it's been very mild; alongside really getting into the
men's T20 World Cup. It's one of my favourite tournaments - absolutely.
So, it's been really great just watching the early stages, and now as we're
getting towards the latter part as well, lots has been going on and we'll get into that in the show.
I can see why there's a smile on your face, Alison. It's Jim Maxwell. I'm up the coast out of
Sydney after about five months of lockdown mucking around, and what you see behind me is pretty much
how it is every day. Beautiful near the beach and the rest of it, but England are going well.
They must be favourites now to win the T20 after India's humiliation at the hands of Pakistan.
And don't forget Australia, they're going alright too aren't they, Charu?
I hear you Jim, and good to hear other stories rather than all those lockdown travails.
Hello everybody, thanks for joining us for our first visible stumped show. I'm Charu Sharma for
All India Radio, glad to be back home in Bangalore after this rain-ruined or storm-ruined trek of
ours to the northern Kumaun Himalayas. I'm glad to be back, of course - it was quite an adventure!
By the way, vanity won. I had this sort of salt and pepper, heavy trekking beard but I said:
"Ah, let's take it off." So, I took it off. But so much going on in the world of cricket, and yes
Jim, you know we're also suffering from that first massive defeat but hey, we'll be back!
We'll be back. No beard - I mean, lockdown beards, heavy trekking beards. That's a new one on me.
Yeah, can't wait to hear about that another time. Later on in the show,
we are going to be joined by former Zimbabwe captain and England coach and now consultant
with the Afghanistan T20 side, Andy Flower.
But let's start with the men's T20 World Cup, because it has certainly lived up to expectations
so far. The reigning champions, the West Indies, lost their opening two matches and
for the first time ever at a World Cup, Pakistan beat India.
Yes, they thrashed their greatest rivals by 10 wickets and, well it was a win so big that I
don't know whether you saw, it reduced the father of captain Babar Azam to tears in the stands.
Then on Tuesday, Pakistan got their second win in three days by beating New Zealand by five wickets.
And if you remember, Pakistan came into Dubai, came into this tournament in the UAE,
after the disappointment of both New Zealand and England opting not to tour the country.
New Zealand pulling out and England pulling out, then a lack of preparation as administrative and
coaching upheaval. But you know, just how good have they looked to you, Charu and Jim? Charu
can you bring it to say that Pakistan could actually be the team to beat?
Well, without question, isn't it? Well, I think India's leading contender tag has been seriously
dented for sure, and Pakistan have taken that place right now, especially after the second
win as well. And if India don't win against New Zealand, they may not make it to the knockout.
So, this is really tough one for India at this point of time. There's lots of other good stories as
well; Afghanistan, I suppose we'll talk about that later. But obviously they had a point two or to
prove, Pakistan. You mentioned some of their troubles. And I do remember a couple of weeks
ago suggesting that the UAE is their homeland. That's their home pitch. They're, perhaps,
more used to conditions in the UAE than any other team. Has that been a big help to them? Perhaps,
but they are playing fabulously, no question about it, in every department of the game.
Have you enjoyed watching them, Jim?
I've been very excited, as ever. I mean, Pakistan have always been
the most mercurial team in international cricket. They can play like world beaters, and
play like novices, paupers, sometimes, and that may happen in this tournament. It's the nature of
T20 Cricket. It only takes one or two players to have an explosive day, and it can turn the game.
Alison, just very quickly, you mentioned Babar Azam's father. Of course that was nice,
emotional high for him. But I do think that that's also a very big difference.
Babar Azam has not proven to be Pakistan's strategically or tactically finest skipper,
but I think he's brought in a certain sense of calm, of purpose, to the team. And as you know,
Pakistan's mercurial performances are often related to the fact that
the leadership is in disarray. So, you know, a two pointer there for Babar Azam.
Yeah, talking of leadership Charu, we spoke on the show last week about the importance of this
T20 World Cup trophy for Virat Kohli and outgoing coach Ravi Shastri. Before the tournament began,
you would have put, I think you did probably put India as favourites didn't you?
But have you revise that already? Or are you like, no knee jerk reaction?
Well, one injured swallow doesn't make a summer, Alison. So hopefully they continue to do well in
the next match or two, so that leading contender tag might be back. But for the moment, as I said,
seriously dented without question. And I wonder how Virat Kohli is taking it and Ravi Shastri too.
Both, well Shastri s not going to be the coach anymore, so does he want to go on a real high
and gee the team up? Or is he saying well, it doesn't really matter anymore. You know,
I'm done and dusted. I do think Kohli's individual reputation will suffer if India go down,
do not make even the knockout. So, there must be serious concern in the Indian camp right now.
I do want to talk about well, what has been the biggest talking points of recent days, which
has been around the South African wicket keeper Quinton de Kock, because the match against the
West Indies, well de Kock made himself unavailable for that game shortly before the start citing, at
the time, personal reasons. Now, this came after Cricket South Africa had issued a directive
some five hours before the match, stating that all their players should make the gesture of taking
the knee prior to World Cup games in what they've quoted as "a united and consistent stance against
racism." Since then, Quinton de Kock has issued a statement apologising and saying that he is
happy to take the knee. He says: "I know I have an example to set. We were previously told we had the
choice to do what we felt we wanted to do. I chose to keep my thoughts to myself, and thought of the
pride of playing for my family and my country." He goes on: "I didn't understand why I had to
"prove it with a gesture, when I live and learn and love people from all walks of life every day."
He says: "When you were told what to do with no discussion, I felt like it takes away the meaning.
"If I was racist, I could easily have taken the knee and lied, which is wrong and doesn't build
a better society." He went on to say - this is a lengthy statement - he went on to say that
he was shocked that they were "told on the way to an important match that there was an instruction
they had to follow with a perceived or else." He says: "I don't think I was the only one. We
"had camps. We had sessions. We had Zoom meetings, we know where we all stand, and that is together."
This was a complex one, wasn't it? It absolutely set social media alight
I guess, because there was a vacuum of silence from Quinton de Kock initially wasn't there,
given that he just didn't play and then nobody heard from him directly.
I think it's a good thing that he has set out to explain his side of where he's coming from.
Broadly speaking, though, Jim & Charu, it presents this moral dilemma, doesn't it, as to whether
gestures should be mandated? The choice to express what you want to express in the way you want to
express it? It's wonder what your take Charu was on, well the way things unfolded, first of all?
Well, it was a bit of a shocker. And as you mentioned, the silence didn't help.
The clarification has certainly helped. At the World Cup, with that level of visibility,
and if the whole team does it together, I think it sends a fabulous message.
If you can leave it to the individual to show it, it just sort of shows that
there might still be differences of opinion, which in this case, there should be none. I mean,
it's something that the world of cricket and the world in general needs to completely stamp down.
Yes, it's a shame Nelson Mandela's not still alive, he would have sorted this out in five seconds.
This is a massive failure on the part of South Africa in terms of how they manage their
players. They should never have got to where it is now. Quinton de Kock should have perhaps
had more common sense in view of particularly South Africa's positioning in regards to racism.
They're more under the pump than anyone else when it comes to this issue of bending the knee.
But surely, the administrators someone who had the ability to communicate with the players,
would have said something at the start. Because we saw in their first match, we had fellas taking
the knee, other players sort of a bit in between where the pump and de Kock just standing there
with his hands behind his back. Well, this needed to be sorted out before the tournament started.
Thank goodness de Kock has had his little Mea Culpa or whatever and realised that
continuing to behave in this way will mean that he'd be out of the tournament, for sure.
But it will also make South Africa, hopefully, more unified as they go on.
Right, well after eight months without a match, and after all the upheaval of the Taliban's
takeover of their country, Afghanistan's men began their T20 World Cup in quite some style.
Mujeeb ur Rahman took five wickets for 20 runs in what was his first ever World Cup
game. And Rashid Khan took four wickets for just nine. Now, former England coach
Andy Flower is working with Afghanistan during this World Cup as a consultant,
and I'm delighted to say that he is with us on Stumped. How're you doing, Andy? Great to see you.
Ali, nice to see you too. I am doing fine, thanks. Yeah, and it was a great start!
It was a great result. We'll talk more about the match in itself, but I mean,
how do you feel this Afghanistan side shapes up compared to, well there's not always been
that many changes of late, I suppose, but how Afghanistan is faring at this
T20 World Cup, compared to the previous editions that they've featured in?
The bigger nations will be worried about facing Afghanistan for two main reasons, I think.
Number one is the bowling attack is quite dangerous, centred around their
spin bowling line-up, primarily. But it also contains medium pacers that are quite useful.
But also, I think it's because they play the game so aggressively. And seemingly fearlessly,
that when you come up against opponents like that, they are almost scary to take on when someone
plays if they've got nothing to lose. So, I think the more established nations understand that
and they will they'll be treating Afghanistan with a lot of respect when they take them on.
Given your Zimbabwe background, and of course, the role you played in the famous black armband
protest with Henry Olonga back in the 2003 World Cup, do you sort of identify in some ways with
the Afghanistan cricketers? Do you see there's some sort of bond almost in that you
both come from backgrounds where there has been an element of political unrest and turmoil?
I think it's part of why I was very attracted to them as a team, actually.
I saw parallels - if you just ignore some of the political and human rights
stuff - I saw parallels with us as a very small cricketing nation in Zimbabwe.
And [it's a] similar situation with Afghanistan, although we have we probably had a much longer
cricketing history than them. But things happened very quickly once we were given international
status in 1992. And, things have happened very quickly for Afghanistan and their administrators,
and their cricketers, and their small coterie of coaches should take a lot of credit for
the pace at which they've developed. They've been amazing. And then yes, I think there's
a slight affinity that I feel because of some of the political upheaval that their country's gone
through. And from quite a selfish perspective, I suppose, it's quite nice to be part of something
that is slightly more than just trying to win a tournament. And I think their cause is
something slightly more than just trying to win a tournament. They can do a lot of good
by - and I'm not saying they're going to go in and win every game - but they can do a lot of good back
home by the way they carry themselves in this tournament. They are very well aware of that,
and it's nice for me just to play a very small part in that, from a selfish perspective.
Jim Maxwell - Nice to talk to you again, Andy. Just looking ahead, this
ICC meeting that's coming up next month to discuss the game's future in Afghanistan.
Do you have a message or anything you'd like to say about
that meeting and the continuation of both men's and women's cricket in Afghanistan?
Decisions taken, for instance - and I've heard this point mooted recently - to perhaps suspend
the men's team from international cricket. I think those types of decisions have to be very well
thought through and shouldn't be snap decisions. And decisions based on what will be best
for world cricket, yes. But also, very more specifically, what will be best for Afghanistan cricket
Merely as assuaging one's conscience is an easy way to make a decision, but might
not necessarily be the most practical, or useful, or best decision to make.
I'd imagine you've had some conversations despite the language problems with the players.
How do they feel about this tournament, after all that's happened in Afghanistan this year?
Well, Jim, they are genuinely excited to be part of another world tournament.
They are obviously concerned, like everyone else, about the future and the safety of all
citizens of Afghanistan. But those are situations that are out of their power at the moment.
They are very simply representing their country as well as they can, and a big part
of that is being able to focus on the cricket. And they do that really well.
Well, Andy, coaching can be often a crown of thorns, but you seem to be in pretty good shape,
unscathed, so good for you. You've been around the world and back twice;
once as a player, now as a coach. What's next?
Well, I hope I haven't completely done the circle yet! I'm really enjoying it, I'm still on that
trip around the world of the second time, and really loving it. So, you know, I've enjoyed
my involvement in the IPL, Charu, and really enjoyed working with Anil [Kumble] and KL Rahul
at Punjab Kings. Obviously, it would be nice at some stage to lead a side perhaps,
in the IPL. And I might go back into international coaching at some stage in the future as well.
Now that my kids are older and have left home, I feel less bad about being away for big
chunks of the year. So, who knows what's around the corner.
Enjoy the rest of the T20 World Cup and the rest of the time with the
Afghanistan men's team. Thanks so much for being on stumped with us.
Thanks, Ali. Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Charu. Nice to see you.
Well, that's it for this week stumped here on All India Radio. Don't forget that you
can follow us on Twitter. We're @BBCWSSport and use #BBC stumped. My thanks to Charu Sharma,
Jim Maxwell, and to you all for watching and listening. We'll see you again next week. Bye bye.