how worried are you about Chinese espionage in the United States?
well I think from a
perspective of threat against the United States national security in our interest
a China is number one by far and I think espionage is a part of that but from a
perspective of countering the intelligence threat of foreign nations
China is our biggest concern across a wide range of issues espionage is one of
our larger ones.
from where you sit you see China is a greater threat than
Russia?
yes! I think Russia has its own skill sets with respect to threat to our
national security but it pales in comparison the national security threat
posed by China and I would say not only here in the US from an economic security
perspective from a military elation perspective as well as globally when you
look at China and what their strategic plan is and Xi Jinping plan is to be the
global superpower geopolitically militarily and from an economic
perspective and they will achieve that with any means necessary that becomes a
global issue not just the u.s. issue.
and what is China trying to do then what's
it doing when it comes to stealing secrets in America?
a lot of success has
been predicated upon the theft globally and a lot of it here in the US of A
provide carry data and trade secrets if you just looked back this year from June
or July till now Department of Justice has indicted or charged 20 Chinese
individuals or businesses for economic espionage just since July that is a lot
and those are just the ones we know about those are just the ones that have
been charged through the criminal court system now but I can tell you there's
more coming and there's more out there so if you just look at that just a
moment in time the amount of data and then when we like to do is say okay
that's great we've arrested Chinese students scientists businessmen stealing
on behalf of the Communist Party of China wonderful but what we like to look
at is what's the damage that's done what is the long-term cost to the American
taxpayer to the research and development organizations to universities to the
businesses and how many jobs are lost with the theft of this proprietary data
and trade secrets that's the long-term impact of another country stealing my
proprietary data and trade secrets.
they've been a number of cases
recently particularly on aerospace and aviation do you think that shows a
particular interest from China in that field?
I think it does and I think it
lays out again perfectly to their strategic plan elements of what they're
interested in and I would say for any foreign intelligence service is the
ability to identify an engineer scientist or someone of value in the
u.s. offer them free travel to China to do a presentation in university or when
they get they get there cultivate them and identify some of the
product and get them to be coerced to provide that technology that provides
your data or a trade secret to them and I think that's tried-and-true and they
will continue to do that and because people are vulnerable to that and don't
understand into ferrous activities when they're asked to do so.
there been
reports that the Chinese use social media platforms like LinkedIn to
approach people and to try and get them to spy effectively.
that's correct and I
think their use of the social media sites like LinkedIn is prolific and
their ability to do so my target of perspective and be able to scan and
search around the globe on these sites for individuals that have a particular
technology is used every day and then they could target those also if you look
at it from a perspective of the intelligence service there it's a
low-risk high-yield ability to send out 30,000 emails 40,000 emails and get 20
30 40 50 will respond and say I had that technology I can come over and give that
presentation.
How far are universities a target and how far are they the kind of
battleground over secrets when it comes to to espionage into China?
that's a great question universities are a big part of this whole mosaic and we look at
you know where a lot of the research and development is done throughout the world
it's in the universities and colleges and research centers that are globalized
right and and our adversaries around the world know that the Chinese know that so
they will put people on those positions to identify not only emerging
technologies but now technologies I think colleges universities and research
centers are constantly victimized by the Chinese about this just in the u.s. we
grant probably 350,000 students from China alone access here the majority of
those are really hard working students to learning
better educated around in their own families and their mindsets but provides
an amazing opportunity for the Chinese intelligence services to utilize those
individuals to steal that research and development when you look at the funding
that comes with those 350,000 I think their current estimate is forty
five billion dollars a year that US universities and colleges are getting
from China to have their students come here that's wonderful it's great for the
economy but also the university is now starting to understand not only the US
but around the globe the activities and then Affairs
activities of intelligence services oftentimes happen on college university
campuses.
you're seeing in the UK you think.
that's correct.
Chinese economic power in terms of is clearly growing companies want access to
the Chinese market does that create any concerns over the leverages that that
might give China?
it certainly does and I spend a lot of my time the private
sector talking just about this because if you are a Western market a Western
business of Western entity who has developed something in order to be that
successful down the road you need to engage in the Chinese market right which
is a huge part of the global economy but when you do so you need to go there
fully understanding that there are risks to that there are laws that provide
China the ability to take your data your trade secrets proprietary data, your
information everything that your code for your sources code that comes with
anything you're gonna put there China then owns that and that is not
reciprocal here in the US Great Britain or Australia so when you look at that
capability when you go to China and the global market to invest to be part of
that economy you have to go in there with your eyes wide open that is a
significant challenge.
do you think companies are aware of that challenge
because some technology companies have gone into China some are debating going
into China is the Google issue whether they're gonna you know put a search
engine into China I mean do you think companies are aware of the risks now of
what might be involved when it comes to free expression for instance?
I would say
most of them are not I think there are companies that have a specific
organizational ties have a particular product understand that and they go
their eyes open but I think it's a risk based
assessment you have to have going to China and I think we had to do a better
job in the Western civilization to say hey when you go to China in this market
you were going to give this up just as much as you were aware of that
and I think that's all we can really ask for when you've talked about Google
Google CEO alphabet CEO pretty much said hey listen you have to sell part of your
soul when you go to China you have to make that part of your equation when you
decide to do so.
and you think people who are aware of those risks but not still enough?
and I think we're getting there I don't think they're there fully and I think
when you talk about the business end of things that are not national
security-related it's the the dream of it's the American dream it's the the
dream of Great Britain to be able to produce X and sell it globally and I
think that is the sign of a very healthy capitalist society our goal is to throw
a layer on that of national security what does that mean in US and Great
Britain and Australia in Canada how is that impacting our national security my
perspective is our economic security is our national security so they are
intertwined all we want companies and businesses to know is there is a risk
factor when you go into China to operate.
and your messages think twice?
think
twice because your data is going to be available to the Chinese government and
to intelligence services for whatever they deem possible.
does it worry you
though that companies do seem to be willing to censor what they do to get
access to the Chinese market because we're seeing more more cases where
people perhaps are not talking about Tibet or Taiwan or some of these issues
because they want to sell their goods in China they want to open hotels in China
they want to make films in China will sell them to China?
it's definitely a
slippery slope and I think it's problematic from me and I look at it
this says is this something we want to have going forward as a global society
where we have a major retailer here in the US have to apologize to the
government of China because they left Taiwan off a map of China on the shirt
when we have a major airline have to apologize to the Chinese government
because there's so many markets for the airline because of
tweet and and if you look at a major hotel brand us have to apologize to
China because of mundane activity I don't think that is where we want to go
as a global society when we have to apologize to countries again if you look
at Hollywood you know - China just ban Winnie the pooh well now if you look at
that if we have screenwriters now in the US and across the world in any capacity
whether it's Hollywood or in the new streaming video world have to write
their screenplays with the long term vision of selling this in China that's
the that's the perfect metric for success by the government of China that
we have self-censorship going on with the ability for people with the long
term idea that we're going to sell this in the global market to include China we
cannot have anything anti China and our documentary or a movie or a screenplay
is very problematic.
you think that's a security risk?
I think the influence part
of that is a security risk I don't think that's a national security but again
it's part of the slippery slope where you will have self-censorship in a free
society to be able to work and play in the global economy or in China it's very
problematic to the morals the values that we build and are built and we live
by our democratic societies in the West.
so it's a sense in which Chinese
influence is extending into self-censorship or into limiting free
speech you think?
yes and I think they already have an influence campaign where
they censor everything on their own but when they have a democratic country like
the US or Great Britain self censoring early on in a business process that is a
that is a model of success for China.
because they've exported it without even
having to pressure a company that will tell them what to do?
absolutely we look
at the last ten years the amount of movies that are no longer being able to
be marketed in China because they either have an issue with China or the
predication of the show is maybe negative and it's China based that's
problematic so when you have screenwriters now writing in a script
thinking about well I better not say this or that or do it this way because I
don't believe it I sell my video in China
that's an amazing success for censorship.
do you think now in the US there is more
awareness of this because it's certainly been the case in the last six months
we've seen a lot of indictments a lot of activity is is there a coordinated
campaign going on from from from this administration to to put pressure on
China?
this is not an anti China issue this is a protect America protect a free
world from all these nefarious activities and the economic aggression
by China not only here in the US but on the globe.