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>> Harris: A COLD WAR
SPECIALIST IS ABOUT TO HELP US
DIVE DEEPER INTO THE LARGER
STRATEGIC CHALLENGES POSED BY
PUTIN’S WAR, AND GAIN A BETTER
PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT’S LED TO THE
CURRENT INVASION.
WITH ME HERE IN WASHINGTON,
FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE
CONDOLEEZZA RICE.
SECRETARY NUMBER GREAT TO HAVE
YOU HERE THIS MORNING,
PARTICULARLY TO REACT TO THIS
BREAKING NEWS BECAUSE THE WORLD
MAY LEAN INTO HOPE, DO WE NOT
MOVE TOO QUICKLY TOWARD THAT,
KNOWING THAT A DELEGATION FROM
EACH UKRAINE AND RUSSIA NOW
ABOUT TO MEET TODAY ON THE
BORDER?
WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT?
>> Secretary Rice: I’M CERTAIN
THAT’S A LENSKI IN THE UKRAINIAN
GOVERNMENT WILL USE THE WORDS OF
RONALD REAGAN, TRUST AND VERIFY
HERE.
IF IT’S ALWAYS A GOOD THING IF
IN THE MIDDLE OF SOMETHING LIKE
THIS THERE’S A CHANCE FOR A
PEACEFUL RESOLUTION, BECAUSE WE
CAN SEE THE SUFFERING IN UKRAINE
OF THESE INCREDIBLY BRAVE PEOPLE
AND WHAT THEIR GOING THROUGH,
BUT WE WILL SEE WHAT TERMS THE
RUSSIANS OFFER, AND I’M SURE
THAT IT’S A GOOD THING THAT
THEY’RE GOING TO TALK, BUT IF
ANYTHING, WHAT THIS MAY SHOW IS
VLADIMIR PUTIN EXPECTED AND EASY
WIN HERE.
HE THOUGHT HE WOULD WALTZ INTO
THE CAPITAL, IT INTO KYIV, IN
HIS OWN DELUSIONAL RENDERING OF
HISTORY, UKRAINIANS AND RUSSIANS
ARE THE SAME, AND HE WOULD
OVERTHROW THIS GOVERNMENT AND
MIGHT EVEN BE WELCOMED AS A
LIBERATOR.
AND OF COURSE THE REALITY HAS
BEEN SOMETHING QUITE DIFFERENT,
SO PERHAPS THIS IS A LITTLE BIT
OF A SIGNAL THAT THE RUSSIANS
BIT OFF MORE THAN THEY CAN CHEW,
BUT WE WILL WAIT AND SEE IF
ANYTHING MATERIALIZES HERE.
>> Harris: I WROTE ON EXACTLY
WHAT YOU SAID, I OFTEN TAKE
NOTES WHEN YOU SPEAK.
DELUSIONAL RENDERING OF HISTORY.
IT DELUSIONAL.
LET’S SETTLE THERE FOR A SECOND.
SENATOR MARCO RUBIO, THE TOP
REPUBLICAN ON THE INTELLIGENCE
COMMITTEE, TWEETED THIS.
"I WISH I COULD SHARE MORE BUT
FOR NOW I CAN SAY IT’S PRETTY
OBVIOUS TO MANY THAT SOMETHING
IS OFF WITH PUTIN.
HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A KILLER, BUT
HIS PROBLEM NOW IS DIFFERENT AND
SIGNIFICANT.
IT WOULD BE A MISTAKE TO ASSUME
THAT PUTIN WOULD REACT THE SAME
WAY HE WOULD HAVE FIVE YEARS
AGO."
HE MET WITH PUTIN AT LEAST A
HALF A DOZEN TIMES.
YOU DESCRIBE THEM DIFFERENTLY
TODAY TOO.
WHY?
>> Secretary Rice: I MET WITH
HIM MANY TIMES, AND THIS IS A
DIFFERENT PUTIN.
HE WAS ALWAYS, SENATOR RUBIO
SAID, THIS IS AN X KGB MAN.
HE ONCE SAID YOU’RE ALWAYS
ESSENTIALLY KGB MAN IF YOU ARE,
SO HE HAD THAT -- THAT TOUGH
VENEER.
HE WAS ALWAYS CALCULATING AND
COLD, BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT.
HE SEEMS ERRATIC.
THERE IS AN EVER-DEEPENING
DELUSIONAL RENDERING OF HISTORY.
IT WAS ALWAYS A KIND OF VICTIM
ALLERGY ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO
THEM BUT NOW IT GOES BACK TO
BLAMING LENIN FOR THE FOUNDATION
OF KYIV IN UKRAINE.
SO HE’S DESCENDING INTO
SOMETHING THAT I PERSONALLY
HAVEN’T SEEN BEFORE.
>> Harris: SO I WANT TO ASK
YOU NOW ABOUT WHAT KEEPS YOU UP
AT NIGHT WITH REGARD TO THAT,
BECAUSE THERE IS THIS WORRY
AMONG GENERALS WITH WHOM I’VE
TALKED WITH -- AND THEY DO
WORRY, BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS --
NO MATTER HOW GREAT THEY ARE AT
THEIR JOBS, NOBODY WANTS A
WORLD WAR.
BUT THAT PUTIN WOULD DO
SOMETHING AT THIS POINT THAT HE
MIGHT NOT HAVE DONE A FEW YEARS
AGO IN TERMS OF MORE OF A LAND
GRAB.
THE BALTICS, FOR INSTANCE.
AND BECAUSE OF ARTICLE FIVE WITH
NATO, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR
US?
WE GET INVOLVED IN A WAR.
WE CAN’T GO TO WAR WITH A
NUCLEAR POWER, BUT DOES HE CARE
ABOUT THAT ANYMORE?
>> Secretary Rice: WELL, I
DON’T KNOW WHERE HE IS IN THAT
DARK WORLD, BUT I WILL SAY THIS:
WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT HE
REALLY UNDERSTANDS THAT THE COST
WOULD BE EXTRAORDINARY TO TRY TO
CROSS AN ARTICLE FIVE LINE, AN
ATTACK UPON ONE IS AN ATTACK
UPON ALL, SO THE BALTIC STATES
ARE INDEED PROTECTION UNDER THAT
GUARANTEED BY THE UNITED STATES
OF AMERICA.
IF HE MEETS THE KIND OF
RESISTANCE THAT HE IS MEETING IN
UKRAINE, IF YOU CAN’T GET AN
EASY WIN, IF IT LOOKS LIKE HE’S
NOT GOING TO ACHIEVE HIS
OBJECTIVES, THERE IS A CHANCE
THAT HE PULLS UP, BUT I WANT TO
MAKE SURE THAT HE DOES. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT HE
I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT HE
DOESN’T DECIDE THAT, IN A
RUSSIAN -- IS HIS NEXT WAY TO
COLLECT IT BACK TO RUSSIA.
THAT WOULD INVOLVE THE TERRITORY
OF THE BALTIC STATES.
WHAT WE ARE DOING IN REINFORCING
NATO FORCES IN THE BALTICS AND
IN POLAND I’M A NATIVE’S EASTERN FLANK, IF YOU WILL, THIS
IS THE WAY HE WOULD KNOW IF THE
COST WOULD BE VERY HIGH.
>> Harris: IT’S INTERESTING
POINT THAT OUT BECAUSE WE SAW
THE TROOP BUILDUP ON OUR OWN
END.
THEY PUT TOGETHER THAT NATO
FIGHTING FORCE TO GO TO GERMANY,
PUT MORE THERE.
AND YOU KNOW, WE ARTY HAVE 3,000
IN POLAND, A LOT OF THAT IS AN
AMERICAN OHMIC HUMANITARIAN
EFFORT.
I TALKED WITH SECRETARY OF STATE
PRO-TRUMP, MIKE POMPEO, AND
FRIDAY, AND HE WAS SAYING LOOK,
YOU CAN PUT TOGETHER NOW
SOMETHING -- HE IS SITTING A
NEONATAL UNIT, A HOSPITAL WITH
THOSE BABIES IN IT.
WE KNOW THAT HE’S HITTING
TARGETS HE SHOULDN’T BE, AND I
SAY HIM VIA HIS MILITARY.
HE’S GOT 200,000 TROOPS ON THE
GROUND.
>> Secretary Rice: WELL, THEY
ARE CERTAINLY COMMITTING ACTS
THAT ARE, LET’S SAY CLOSE TO THE
LINE IN THAT REGARD.
BUT I WOULD LIKE TO PUT THAT
ASIDE.
LET’S LOOK AFTER THE ENTIRE
CAMPAIGN IS OVER BECAUSE RIGHT
NOW WHAT WE NEED TO CONCENTRATE
ON IS GETTING FURTHER ARMAMENT
TO THE HUMAN UKRAINIANS.
I WAS TREMENDOUS AND HEARTENED
BY THE GERMANS WERE MOVING
OBJECTIONS, TALK ABOUT
INCREASING THEIR DEFENSE
SPENDING BEYOND 2%.
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE CLOSING
THEIR AIRSPACE TO THE RUSSIANS.
YOU’VE BEEN COVERING THE
PROTESTS THAT ARE GOING ON
AROUND THE WORLD.
>> Harris: YES.
>> Secretary Rice: THE
UKRAINIAN GRANDMOTHERS WHO ARE
SEEING TO RUSSIAN SOLDIERS I’M
GOING TO PUT SUNFLOWER SEEDS IN
YOUR POCKETS SO THAT WHEN YOU
DIE ON UKRAINIAN SOIL THEY CAN
POP UP ON YOUR GRAVE.
IF THIS IS NOT WHAT PUTIN
IMAGINED.
SO LET’S CONCENTRATE RIGHT NOW
ON MAKING SURE THAT HE PAYS THE
HIGHEST COST FOR WHAT HE’S
ALREADY DONE.
AND BY THE WAY, IF WE CONTINUE
TO REINFORCE AMERICAN FORCES.
THESE ARE NOT HUMANITARIAN THAT
ARE GOING IN, THESE ARE --
>> Harris: FEES OR HEAVY
BRIGADES.
>> Secretary Rice: AIRPOWER.
NOW HE’S LOOKING -- HE ALSO HAS
TO LOOK AT I DON’T WANT TO TAKE
ON THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
AND SO I THINK THIS IS THE RIGHT
THING TO DO, AND WE WILL TURN
LATER TO FURTHER PUNISHMENT FOR
WHAT THE RUSSIANS HAVE ALREADY
DONE.
>> Harris: AND I HAVE ARGUED
WHEN YOU INVADE A SOVEREIGN
NATION, THAT IS A WAR CRIME.
I MEAN, I THINK WE ARE AT JUST A
BASIC, BASIC POINT THERE.
>> Secretary Rice: IT IS
CERTAINLY AGAINST EVERY
PRINCIPAL OF INTERNATIONAL LAW
AND INTERNATIONAL ORDER, AND
THAT’S WHY THROWING THE BOOK AT
THEM NOW IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC
SANCTIONS AND PUNISHMENTS IS
ALSO A PART OF IT.
AND I THINK THE WORLD IS THERE.
CERTAINLY NATO IS THERE.
HE’S MANAGED TO UNITE NATO IN
WAYS I DIDN’T THINK I WOULD EVER
SEE AGAIN AFTER THE END OF THE
COLD WAR.
>> Harris: REALLY?
>> Secretary Rice: YEAH.
WE MAY HAVE LITTLE TACTICAL
DIFFERENCES ABOUT DOING THIS ARE
DOING THAT, BUT I CAN’T
EMPHASIZE ENOUGH SEEING THE
GERMANS BE AMONG THE FIRST TO
COME OUT AND SAY YES, WE SHOULD
DO THE SWIFT REMOVAL.
YES, WE ARE GOING TO INCREASE
OUR SPENDING BEYOND 2%.
YES, NETHERLANDS AND OTHERS, YOU
CAN TRANSFER GERMAN WEAPONS, AND
BY THE WAY, WE WILL TRANSFER
SOME ON OUR OWN.
HE HAS STIRRED UP A HORNETS
NEST, AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE IT STINKS HIM
AND STINGS HIM HARD.
BACK IN RUSSIA PEOPLE GOT TO BE
ASKING IF THE LAST 30 YEARS OF
BEING BETTER INTEGRATED INTO THE
INTERNATIONAL ORDER, OF BEING
ABLE TO GO TO GRADUATE SCHOOLS
AND PLACES LIKE STANFORD AND
HARVARD, BEING ABLE TO BUY
WESTERN GOODS FOR YOUR KIDS, IS
PUTIN PUTTING ALL OF THAT RISK
WITH NOW THE ISOLATION OF RUSSIA
SO IT BEGINS TO LOOK AGAIN LIKE
THE SOVIET UNION THAT WAS
ISOLATED FROM THE WORLD?
FOR RUSSIANS WHO DON’T EVEN
REMEMBER THE SOVIET UNION, THIS
HAS GOT TO BE A TERRIBLY BITTER
PILL TO SWALLOW.
>> Harris: THAT MAY SPEAK TO
THE ISSUE OF WHY THEY ARE
PROTESTING IN THE STREETS,
WILLING TO LITERALLY DIE FOR
FREE SPEECH AGAINST THIS WAR
WITH UKRAINE.
IT’S A REALLY -- YOU STACKED UP
A LOT OF FACTS THERE.
I WANT TO PUT SOME MORE INTO
PERSPECTIVE NOW.
BACK IN 2008 YOU WERE ONE OF THE
FIRST WORLD LEADERS TO FLY TO
GEORGIA WHEN THE RUSSIAN
MILITARY WAS STILL MAKING MOVES
THERE.
ACTIVELY YOU WERE INVOLVED IN
THE CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS.
WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET PUTIN
THERE TODAY?
DO WE KNOW WELL ENOUGH WHAT HE
WANTS?
>> Secretary Rice: HE HAS DONE
THINGS IN UKRAINE THAT FRANKLY
HE DIDN’T DO IN GEORGIA.
THE CAMPAIGN IN GEORGIA WAS
RELATIVELY FAST.
AND I JUST MIGHT NOTE, THERE
WERE PICTURES THIS MORNING OF
MASSIVE PROTESTS IN GEORGIA
AGAINST THIS WAR.
LET’S REMEMBER THAT THE GEORGIAN
GOVERNMENT, THE GOVERNMENT
REMAINED IN POWER.
THE RUSSIANS HAD ACTUALLY SET
PERSONALLY TO ME THAT THEY
WANTED HIM GONE, AND I TOLD THEM
WE DON’T HAVE SECRET TALKS ABOUT
REMOVING A GEORGIAN PRESIDENT.
AND SO THE VERY FACT THAT THE
GEORGIAN GOVERNMENT NOT ONLY
SURVIVED, BUT TODAY GEORGIANS
ARE FREE TO PROTEST THE
RUSSIANS, SAYS THAT MAYBE HE
DIDN’T EVEN ACHIEVE HIS GOALS
THEY ARE.
FRUSTRATING HIM.
THAT’S WHAT IT TAKES TO GET HIM
TO BACK OFF, AND WHEN RUSSIAN
SOLDIERS ARE DYING -- AND BY THE
WAY, IT’S VERY HARD NOW TO KEEP
EVERYTHING QUIET -- I’M VERY
PLEASED THAT THE ADMINISTRATION
WAS RELEASING INTELLIGENCE ABOUT
WHAT HE WAS DOING.
>> Harris: ALONG THE WAY.
>> Secretary Rice: READING HIS
MAIL.
HE’S GOT TO BE WONDERING WHO ARE
THESE PEOPLE AROUND ME THAT WERE
TALKING TO THE AMERICANS?
IT WILL FEED HIS OWN PARANOIA
ABOUT HIS OWN INNER CIRCLE.
>> Harris: FASCINATING.
I HOPE NO ONE MISSED THAT.
YOU TOLD HIM WE DON’T KEEP
SECRETS ABOUT TAKING OTHERS OUT
IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
AND THEN HE DIDN’T.
>> Secretary Rice: THAT’S
RIGHT.
>> Harris: SECRETARY RICE, HE
LISTENED TO YOU.
>> Secretary Rice: I TOLD THE
FOREIGN MINISTER THAT.
I SAID I’M GOING TO CALL
EVERYBODY THAT I KNOW AND TELL
THEM ONE OF YOUR CONDITIONS IS
REMOVAL.
BEING TRUTHFUL, THE
UNITED STATES HAS ALWAYS BEEN
BEST IN THESE INFORMATION WARS
WHEN WE ARE TELLING THE TRUTH.
NOT WHEN WE ARE USING OUR OWN
PROPAGANDA BUT WHEN WE ARE
TELLING THE TRUTH.
YOU HAVE PEOPLE IN YOUR UKRAINE
HUGE POPULATION IN RUSSIA THAT
KNOWS THEIR GOVERNMENT IS NOT
TELLING THEM THE TRUTH.
I’VE BEEN TOLD THE RUSSIAN
TELEVISION IS PLAYING WAR II AND
NAZIS AND SO FORTH, BUT NOBODY
UNDER THE AGE OF 40 IN RUSSIA
WATCHES TELEVISION.
THEY ARE ON THE INTERNET.
THEY CAN SEE WHAT’S HAPPENING
THERE.
HE’S HAVING A HARDER TIME HIDING
HIS CRIMES THAN HE DID EVEN IN
2008.
>> Harris: SECRETARY RICE, A
PLEASURE TO HAVE YOUR TIME, YOUR