Hi there, Steve Kauffmann here.
Today we have a special guest, Alberto Salas, of Mr Salas.
Which is his presence on the internet.
And Alberto, I´m gonna let you introduce yourself
but I briefly sort of introduce our discussion
to say that I wanna cover some of the ground
that I´ve covered in my recent videos.
And then maybe go over in spanish,
for the benefit of people who are learning spanish
or for spanish speakers who would like to hear
some of this material discussed in spanish.
But first, Alberto, could you please introduce yourself?
Alberto: Yes, of course.
Hello there, Mr. Salas here.
So I´m a Mexican YouTuber.
I tend to like upload stuff about learning languages,
using comprehensible input, learning on your own,
you know, overall, just how to optimize your time
and your money, in order to learn languages.
So that´s kind of my gag.
We could say.
Steve: Allright, that is a very good leading,
to what I´d like to discuss with you,
first in english and then in spanish.
And that is, like my last 3 videos touchdown is kind of related issues.
First of all I said "Don´t learn the basics".
And of course, people should go there and watch that video,
but the idea is that we learn things according to
an order which really isn´t gonna change very much,
regardless of how much instruction or specific attention
we place on certain basics.
It´ll gradually come to us, if we continue doing
our listening and reading.
And then I said, you know,
Rather than focusing on the long term goal
"I wanna be fluent", focus on developing good habits,
and I made reference to atomic habits.
And the third one, I talked about
the different stages of enjoyment.
Again, the focus is on enjoying the language,
rather than sort of rigid instruction, such as we're used to.
And so those three videos,
I think you said you looked at, at least one of them.
Alberto: Yeah.
Steve: I think it's very close to your message.
And, you know, how we can encourage people to
maybe get out from under the legacy
of formal instruction in our school system.
And I say that without knowing what the situation is in Mexico,
how languages are taught in Mexico, and so forth.
Maybe you could give us your sort of take on these videos.
And the state of language instruction, in Mexico and elsewhere.
Alberto: Sure, like, uh, actually,
I think I don't have a lot of teacher fans in Mexico.
Because usually I tend to be a little, you know,
I wouldn't say rude.
I'm just like more of a
"Oh, this is actually not very good for learning."
"Oh, this thing we do is not really good."
But I do think it's not the teachers fault, but rather the system.
You know, like, we tried to make students pass exams,
not learn languages.
And I mean, actually,
That was the same situation in Japan, by the way, right?
So it's really similar.
It's actually uncanny, how similar like the way they learn this.
Steve: But it's not unique to either Mexico or Japan.
Because in Canada, kids in the English school system,
unless they're in French immersion, if they're learning French as a subject,
they don't learn very much, because it's the same emphasis
on passing tests.
Interesting point, you speak a number of languages.
But recently, you have been learning Japanese,
and then you went to Japan.
Tell us a little bit of your background.
How, when did you get into Japanese?
And what was your experience when you were in Japan?
Alberto: Well, I'm preparing a video about that.
So hopefully, I'll get that soon enough,
because I've been failing at Japanese for about,
I would like to say 10 years, but that's not realistic.
Because I tried to learn when I was like, at the university.
But I mean, I didn't really get into it, right.
But I got much more into it like 2 years ago,
when my channel started.
I tried to learn using some of the things I thought could work.
And funnily enough, like, the things that worked for me
for German or English, didn't actually work for Japanese,
which was interesting.
So I had to, like change it a little.
I had never had to learn a language that required
to be able to read something first.
Before actually immersing or whatever, right.
I had had situations like in German what I had to learn,
the phonetics of the language when,
two or three vowels are together and the way they sound shorten,
but that's not the same thing as learning the syllables in Japanese.
Or even worse, the kanji.
So, yeah, it was a very, very recent thing.
Steve: It's interesting. It's interesting.
Of course, I think we both agree, at least certainly, in my view,
reading is such a powerful way to improve in a language
and an important goal in learning a language.
When you're dealing with the different writing system
then you have you know, it's a major obstacle.
And we never quite get as comfortable
in a different writing system as we are in our own.
So as a Spanish speaker, you're learning English
or learning German, you're learning Italian,
it's the same writing system.
So it's a lot easier from that point of view
to get right into it.
But I think regardless of the obstacles and the difficulties,
I still believe we have to enjoy the language
or we aren't going to succeed.
Maybe we can now speak a little bit of spanish.
Alberto: Yes, of course.
Steve: You have to do it with pleasure
and enjoy the language learning process.
Cause if we focus on grammar,
and the basic rules of language as an obligation,
because we have exams, making linguistic growth is very challenging. 123 00:06:00,733 --> 00:06:02,033 What do you think?
Alberto: I think it's frustrating for many people more than just difficult. 125 00:06:10,533 --> 00:06:13,167 Because about a language,
and this is what I always tell people,
Learning a language is not difficult; rather, it is challenging.
And I'm referring to complicated because it's not like that
I'll be learning English in classes for six months.
No. It heavily incorporates the teacher's methodology
or the materials they are using.
Or, as you say, Steve, how much you like it.
Because it's very easy to give up something you don't like after a month.
And I frequently use the same analogy when referring to the gym.
To me, learning a language and exercising
are almost identical.
It requires having a lot of willpower
to do it continuously day after day.
In my opinion, doing it yourself
through self-learning works best.
at your own pace, doing the things you enjoy.
That is the problem with the school,
they believe the content you are consuming right now is better.
The audios and role plays you do,
are those that the school consider the best.
And frequently it's not the best environment for your specific learning.
I understand that it must be universal,
in order to function for everyone as a whole.
And that´s why I think that is the major flaw
in the instruction at the schools.
An Instructor that lead you by the hand.
It's possible that you aren't interested in what you're learning.
And as you say, that is the most essential thing.
to learn a language.
That you are interested in it and enjoy it, as you correctly stated.
Steve: There is an order, according to Steven Krashen's theory.
In learning language structures, words,
or other linguistic facets.
There is no inherent order.
Whatever the professor may teach about the subjunctive and other concepts,
the English "tenses."
But you will learn those things according to this order.
No need to worry.
And as a consequence, exams and texts
make you anxious about test results in particular.
And refrain from letting any language enter your head.
Therefore, you must believe in this innate learning process.
I believe that the way that language is taught in schools,
destroys this sense of independence.
Everything is according to the teacher's words.
"You're going to read this content."
" Now that I have taught you this,
let's see if you have understood what I have taught you."
But ultimately, the head cannot function in this way.
The way that is taught in schools is therefore against nature.
And above all, because the learner lacks this independence,
which is crucial in language learning.
Alberto: Yes, and I believe that many people believe this when they hear, for instance,
that I learned Alemán by watching Netflix.
And then I did a little shadowing practice.
What I learned the most from was playing computer games and watching Netflix.
Many people take that to be true, especially in Mexico,
because this is my own unique experience.
People frequently say, "You're lying to me,"
You're trying to tell me this..."
Unquestionably, there is a strong opposition to
the notion of learning naturally, as you claim.
And I think my hypothesis for why this continues to be the case today is that,
despite all the content that is already available,
90% of people find it to be ineffective,
For stating a number, right?
Because I believe it works better for those who are more logical.
Like when they say, "A, B, C, D, perfect."
And they are building it as well.
But they are a minority.
I believe that in order to learn in this way
you must be a genius.
That is my belief. It's my opinion.
I believe that the vast majority of us learn naturally.
Simply filling us to the brim.
And that is what I tell the students,
"Speak to the language, wherever it may be.
No matter"
No initial step exists.
Because that "I know basic English" stuff…
"I'll start with the basics and work my way up," seems unusual to me.
And I think that stems from the notion of how
text-based library structures.
They start off by using the simple present.
Then, the present continuous comes after the simple present.
After the present continuous, simple past, and so on.
This leads to the delusion that the present perfect
is an advanced topic while the simple present is a basic topic..
When that isn't true.
Simply put, there are various contexts in which the language is used.
But I think that's the reason.
For a teacher, I think it's easier to prepare a lesson plan
and set up a schedule.
I'm talking about a school curriculum.
If it is based on skills like pieces or linguistic chunks,
a class of understandable information, or a class of habits.
That is very ambiguous.
I believe it to be difficult.
In fact, I'd like to know, Steve, what you think about
how this contribution could be made in a classroom.
Steve: Yes, this is very difficult, but we must acknowledge
that the world has changed.
And as you say, there are plenty of online contents now, like Netflix.
And other things, so we don't need the teacher to explain the entire lesson to us..
We must learn, byy using this content as a starting point,
Content is available everywhere.
We can choose and look for interesting things.
And perhaps students can study different subjects in one class.
Three alumni: alumni A, B, and C.
They will be studying through various contents.
Then they can discuss about the material they studied..
But there is also the matter of the book
I mentioned in the film, "Atomic Habits."
Hábitos atómicos.
Habits and activities must be developed on one's own.
It's crucial that you engage in enjoyable learning activities
every day or nearly every day.
And that you have habits for doing things, listening to or reading, or speaking.
Every day, every day, every day.
This is more significant than any exam.
Because of this, we at LingQ measure activity levels
rather than level, which is difficult.
And if someone has good habits
and is involved with the language every day, they will advance.
Without making reference to any book or test.
Alberto: Well, LingQ, it seems to be more based on reading, right? 252 00:14:09,867 --> 00:14:12,600 Steve: No, no, because everything is...
I started out by listening.
And while listening, 20% to 30% of what I hear is unclear.
And after that, I'm going to read and save phrases and words.
to study those words and phrases.
There are many functions that help me understand
words and phrases.
But I always start with listening.
I spend more time hearing than reading.
But it's all part of the input, so.
Alberto: I think a lot of people have said to me,
"Okay, but how do you start?"
How do you start, if you are a total beginner in a language?
How exactly can you begin learning that language?
Because, for instance, you say that you don't understand 20% or 30% of the words.
However, if you're starting from scratch, I doubt you'll understand anything.
Or one or two that you heard at your best at some point.
How does Steve Kaufmann start learning a language from scratch?
Because I don't think you start out understanding the 20% or the 30%,
that's cheating. You then understand the language.
How does that work?
Steve: I started out by listening to short stories.
I won't understand anything, but it will make sense to me.
Then I'll read a phrase at a time,
look up words, read it again, and listen to it again.
And finally, I'm going to hear the three-minute mini-story.
I won't understand much of it, so I'll read it again.
And eventually after that, I'll be bored,
so I'll put myself in the position to study the next short story.
And I won't understand much. 282 00:16:07,467 --> 00:16:10,567 But eventually I'll have heard it 20 times.
And after 20 times of hearing, five times of reading,
and saving phrases and words, the noise will gradually
begin to make sense.
This process, which I've used numerous times, is effective.
Since there is so much repetition in the short stories,
this works.
Numerous beginner's books fall short of having enough repetitions.
When we first start, we'll have to run into those words a lot.
a lot, a lot of times.
The same words, the same vocabulary, and the same story
all appear four or five times in one story.
And so, after three months,
I can gradually start looking for more interesting YouTube content or whatever.
Alberto: Contenido real, ¿no?
Steve: Yes, real.
However, we can continue talking for hours on end
and will continue on your channel.
Alberto: Exactly.
I invite you to watch the following video on my channel.