Welcome to the show.
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
You've written an intriguing book
that takes us on a journey through your life.
You know, it-it starts off in a place
that many people are familiar with.
Growing up in a very religious household
as a Jehovah's Witness.
Now they... People may not be familiar
-with that part as the religion... -Yeah.
but everyone's grown up, or many people have grown up religious.
And you begin this journey that slowly changes over time.
Let's start with that part
before we really reveal where your journey takes you.
What is it like to be a Jehovah's Witness?
I mean, because we laugh from the outside. Um...
-I know you do. -No, no, really. Peop...
-I've heard the jokes. -Yes, people are just...
-You know what I mean? The knocking on the doors. -Yes.
And the peop... Like the... like the...
Like, as a Jehovah's Witness, did you know about that,
or were you... were you completely oblivious?
I think as a Jehovah's Witness, every time, if in a movie,
there was a joke about a Jehovah's Witness,
or in a comedy show, we kind of liked it, 'cause it kind of...
We would laugh along with it, and it was like,
-at least we were getting some attention. -Right.
Maybe it was a way of being in the world,
'cause we lived kind of cut off from the world in our own way.
-Interesting. -But, you know, Prince was a Jehovah's Witness,
so, there-there were mainstream people,
-and we were very excited when that happened. -Huh.
-That's an interesting one. -Yeah.
There's-there's a part of the book that I...
that I really enjoy.
It's early on where you talk about
how you would go to these houses,
and you would knock on peoples' doors.
And some of these neighborhoods were really rich and fancy.
-Yeah. -And some people would cuss you out.
Some people would threaten you and tell you to leave.
Other people wouldn't answer.
But there's a beautiful line in the book where you say,
"I would come back the next year,
and I would be shocked that these sinners are still alive."
And you, like, "That's not what my religion has told me.
-They should be dead by now." -Mm-hmm.
Was that a... was that a weird moment for you,
or did you just push it to the back of your head?
I mean, I guess it was... We had been taught
from being very young that the world was going to end any day.
Like, in-in our children's books,
there were centerfold spreads, artists' conceptions
-of what Armageddon would look like. -Right.
And we were just little kids reading this.
But there were pictures of, like,
-fire coming down from Heaven... -Yes.
...wiping out all the people,
basically all of you, no offense.
(laughter)
So yeah, it... I think it was something
that was constantly on our mind,
and that's why we lived the way that we did,
because we thought the world was ending.
I mean, why do you think we spent so much time preaching?
-It's, you know, it wasn't that much fun. -Because you believe.
Yeah, we believe, yeah. And there was a certain smugness,
you know, like, where we felt like we had the truth
and we were sharing with people, and if they didn't listen,
well, too bad. (laughs)
You truly believed in a way that I find admirable.
Because in the book you talk about how you left America
and moved to China to preach and to be a missionary.
And China, for those who don't know,
is one of the countries where it's illegal to do that.
You're not allowed to preach religion to people.
You're not allowed to be a missionary.
So that, like, takes a real level of belief.
Why China, and why would you take that risk?
Um, I think that there was probab...
I mean, I had been raised as a Jehovah's Witness,
so I did fully believe it, and I really did want to help people.
My motives, you know, in my own mind, were pure,
that I thought I was saving people's...
-sorry, I thought I was saving people's lives. -Right.
Um, but I think, also, there was probably some latent thing in me
-where I wanted an adventure. -Mm-hmm.
Because when you're a Jehovah's Witness,
as most of you probably know, a lot of people
-don't open their door or... -Yes, we know, we know.
-slam the door. -(laughter)
And so, you know, that gets a little tiresome after a while,
so I think that that was part of it, too,
and, you know, if you went to a country
where no one had ever preached before,
it feels like fresh territory.
-It's, like, you got new blood. -Right.
It's-it's an interesting world that you take us into.
What-what's really beautiful, though,
is when you start witnessing the changes.
Because you go out to be a missionary to these people
out there to tell them about being a Jehovah's Witness,
and in a strange way it's almost like they start converting you,
because you meet people who tell you about the world,
you meet people who show you a different perspective,
and that started to shift your views on religion-- in what way?
Yeah, that's... (clears throat)
that's exactly what happened, in that, um...
I think when I was at home, well, first of all,
I didn't get that far-- I didn't really, you know,
come to the point where someone would sit down and listen to me
and, you know, listen to me go through our books
-and study with them in my hometown. -Right.
But in China, more people would listen to what I had to say.
And I think being in a different language
and a different culture, it kind of really disoriented me.
And even learning Chinese-- I learned Mandarin--
um, learning that language, it's not just like a language
where you can just translate from English.
-You really have to kind of excavate your mind -Interesting.
and change the way you think in order to speak it.
But also, there was the strange side effect
of being in this country where,
as we all know, there's not a lot of freedom,
but for a Jehovah's Witness in China,
there was a lot of freedom, because the organization,
anywhere else in the world, is very structured
and quite insular, and you have a lot of meetings
and preaching that you do, and in China,
because the work is done secretly under,
you know, it's under ban there, uh, suddenly,
I just had a lot more freedom and time on my own.
And also the opportunity to meet people
and talk more deeply with them,
people who weren't Jehovah's Witnesses.
Honestly, I-I don't pass judgment because, as I say,
many of us have grown up extremely religiously.
And those levels of religion are defined across religions.
You know, some people would label Jehovah's Witness
as a cult, they would say it's completely a cult.
You speak to that in the book.
Others would argue that any religion can become a cult
depending on how you practice it.
When you look at your life now, you left the religion.
And one of the hardest parts of leaving the religion
was how you were cut off from your family and your society.
It feels like that, in of itself,
lends itself more to being culty
then-then other mainstream religions in a way.
Like, what was that like for you?
Yeah. I think, um, there's a scene in the book
where one of the characters tells me I'm in a cult,
and I react very strongly.
I felt really angry and I was adamant that that wasn't true.
Does anyone who's in a cult ever know they're in a cult?
-That's... -Mm... Yeah.
You know, I don't think-- I don't think they do.
-Except the leader, hopefully. -Yeah.
-I mean, yeah. -Maybe. (laughs)
Um, but it was when I started to have doubts,
and questions and started to leave.
I think when you try to leave a group,
and then strange things start happening,
that can be when it starts to occur to you
-that maybe you might have been in a cult. -Right.
-You might be in a cult when... -Yeah.
For example, as you said, if you're, you know--
It wasn't like I was ranting and raving about it.
I wasn't, like, in the church being like, "This is wrong."
But I-I mentioned a couple things,
maybe some doubts that I had had,
and very quickly, my community just shed me as a person.
And that's quite a big thing for people who have been taught
to build their life around a community.
So that felt strange, and then I think the further--
you know, I got one step away after that happened--
and the further I got away from it,
I would start to see other things, examine other things,
-like the different beliefs that they have, -Right.
um, whether they cause harm.
I think that's a good gage, whether a group--
I mean, religions can do--
be a cause for good, but they can also,
on the flip side, can be a cause for harm.
-Right. -So, for example, um,
Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe
in taking blood transfusions even if it saves your life,
and so that's caused thousands of deaths.
So, that's... When I started to think about that more,
um, with a little bit of distance,
it started, to me, feel like it's not that much different
than Kool-Aid, drinking Kool-Aid
-if people are dying unnecessarily. -Right.
So, there's little signs along the way
that started to make me feel that it was a group
that was not really a positive, um...
Didn't have a really positive effect
-on a lot of people. -Right.
When we look at this-this journey,
you-you are traveling into a religion,
through a religion and then out of the religion.
The one question I always have for people
is what do you then replace that with in your life?
Because, I mean, religion is such a big part of your world
-if you are deeply religious. -Yeah.
Where have you turned to since then?
I mean, you talk in the book about suffering tragic loss.
-You know, you lost a child. -Yeah.
Many people would lean on religion in those moments.
What have you now turned to in your life
to replace that-that stability?
Yeah. I think that when we go through difficult times
or tragedies, the impulse...
There's some instinct in us as humans is to look outward
to try and look for something to absolve
or, like, to-to heal the pain.
And when you no longer believe...
For me, it-it wasn't a choice to believe anymore.
Once I believed and then kind of, like,
just scales fell from my eyes, to use a biblical term,
and then didn't, it wasn't possible for me
to just return and believe something again.
-Right. -So, I think that the big thing that comes to mind
is that when I had... when I was in the religion,
I felt like I had the answers to every question.
Like, anything. Why do we die? Why is there suffering?
Uh, and then that felt really meaningful.
-Mm-hmm. -Like, my life had meaning.
But when you... when you leave the religion
and you realize that those answers weren't true,
well, if an answer isn't true, then it's not meaningful.
So, basically, when you have some future hope
that you no longer believe in, what do you have?
You don't have a, you know,
a fictional future in front of you.
You have what's in front of you now.
And for me, just being present in the world
and knowing that now my life is finite,
it's not gonna go on forever,
it's kind of made me see the world as a more...
-Like, the beauty in the world. -Right.
And even in not having all the answers,
I think there's a lot of magic.
Um, there's a lot of mystery that we can't know right now,
but that can be something that's really meaningful
-and interesting, um, to consider. -Right.
And as far as when my son died, the thing with...
You know, when we do look at the world, there's also pain.
There's no denying that. But even...
I think that the pain that, of course, I carry with me
due to the loss of my son,
um, the flip side of it, of that grief,
is the depth of the love that I had for him.
And, so, to me, I think when I consider
that love of the mother and the child,
-it really is a transcendent love. -Mm-hmm.
And I experience that love without religion.
So, to me, I think that life just has meaning inherently.
It's just that I've traded in maybe the future for the now.
It's a beautiful journey,
and it's a really powerful book with some wonderful insights.
-Thank you so much for being on the show. -Thank you.
-Thanks for having me. -Wonderful having you here.
Leaving the Witness is available now.
Amber Scorah, everybody.