Hello and welcome to Stumped, your intercontinental hit of news, features, and debate
from the quirky world of cricket. I'm Alison Mitchell in London, where it is half term holidays
for the school kids over here. So, half term means a houseful at the moment, I've got my brother
and my niece and nephew staying with me for a few days, they will be out and about exploring London,
which is gearing up for Halloween at the moment. Lots of spooky pumpkins and ghosts and ghouls in
the windows of people's houses as you walk around the streets. We're also enjoying the early starts
to keep on top of the cricket World Cup of course, the T20. Hello from Sydney. Jim Maxwell here, and
whilst Duckworth Lewis and the World Cup have been having a bit of fun in the last few days, I've
been down in Bowral at the Bradman Museum, where the ABC is putting together a documentary tracing
the lives of Tendulkar and Bradman when they were youngsters. Look out for that when it comes out in the New Year.
Hello, I'm Charu Sharma for All India Radio. I remember going back before Stumped
to Bowral many years ago. It was a wonderful trip, but I am in Bangalore and one more week
before I disappear for a few weeks. Luckily, the weather has taken a turn for the better and no
more rain, there's a bit of sunshine, it's getting cooler as well. But, of course, all eyes and ears on the
T20 World Cup, where we did see the match for the ages. I suppose we'll feast on it, but there's even
bigger news if possible. The women in India should be delighted and I suppose women around the world,
because the BCCI sent out a tweet saying that there will be now equal pay for all match fee
for women and men. It couldn't have been bigger, better news for the women, especially in India
and I suppose women cricketers around the world. That was huge news about India's women, wasn't it.
And I've just seen Mithali Raj has tweeted about it, saying: "This is a historic decision for women's
cricket in India!" She says: "The pay equity policy along with the Women's IPL next year,
we are ushering into a new era for women's cricket in India." So, that is huge indeed. And of course,
coming off the back of an enormous India v Pakistan men's encounter in the T20 World Cup. I mean,
how was that at the MCG. When India and Pakistan face each other, we're rarely disappointed. Okay,
sometimes the hype exceeds the action on the field of play, but not this time. I don't think any of
us could have envisaged quite what we saw when those two teams met at the MCG. With three balls
left, India needed 13 to win, but Pakistan wilted and India, inspired by Virat Kohli's 82 from 53
balls, won off the last ball of the match. I loved Corbin Middlemas' commentary on ABC Grandstand,
and that was on TMS here in the UK, because he described the eruption of the Indian fans at
the end as "volcanic joy", which really did sum it up. Virat Kohli had a tear in his eye, Charu,
which you rarely see. I wonder what your own emotions were as you watching all of that unfold?
Well, I must confess to being a bit of a bit of a veteran, I didn't have a tear in my eye,
but what a match! Could you have written a better script? No one could have. That final over,
just how dramatic was it? I don't think people are giving enough credit to this thing called,
dare I mention it, good fortune. Particularly the ball that cannoned onto the stumps - it
was a free hit. Yes, he couldn't have gotten out, but normally the ball would have stayed
around the stumps, and he wouldn't have gotten all those runs. They ran three and it made it
so much easier. Even then, Dinesh Karthik getting out and Ashwin coming in, he's a pretty confident
batter but look at the kind of pressure that he must have been in with Kohli on the other side
stranded. Yet he had the good sense, I suppose to stay at his crease and outguess the bowler, Nawaz,
bowling the wide making it so much easier for India, pressure wise because then they couldn't
lose. And finally, of course, Ashwin hitting the winning runs was just magnificent because even
then there could have been some drama. But what a knock by Kohli. Three years of... I shouldn't say
criticism, or a very long rope to Virat Kohli and he finally comes good. What an occasion,
what an opportunity. Just magical that match and, of course, commiserations to Pakistan because they
played really well. Just lost the plot somewhere, particularly in the last over and you end up on
the losing side. There has been so much criticism in Pakistan, but if I were a Pakistan fan,
I'd say "Hey, listen. You guys played really well. It just didn't turn out for you on that day."
Was this the best T20 match that you've ever seen? We've all watched so many, and the T20 game is
engineered to produce these kind of finishes. So, if you dig deeper into your memory,
there'll be many that finished on the last ball in an equally dramatic fashion. I remember one
that finished... Well, that was some other league, mind you, that finished with a six and a six
with 11 required. So, there have been many such instances. The Brathwaite six, six, six, although
that was a different situation. There are many matches, but overall, the drama at the start of
a T20 World Cup, what a fire lit under the T20 World Cup with this kind of a match. It focused
the world's attention. Even the Australians might have paid a bit of attention to this,
but I just think that the kind of rivalry they enjoy, the task that Kohli and Pandya had to begin
with it was almost incredible. Miraculous, really, and one will remember this for very long.
It was the greatest sporting event ever staged on neutral territory. The atmosphere with that crowd was
unbelievable. We have never, ever seen anything like it in a cricket match, almost anywhere in
the world, but at the MCG where you can stack in over 90,000 people. It was extraordinary,
astonishing, as was Kohli, of course, in winning the game, really single handedly, for India.
It seems to me Charu that every time India play Pakistan and they don't play often enough,
of course, the match comes down in T20 to the last over. I think the last four have been decided in
the last over. I was certain with 10 minutes to go, "ah, super over! Here we go!"
Let me assure you, it is a coincidence. It's not engineered, but just a short while back you might remember, India
lost to Pakistan by 10 wickets in their opening combination just knocked out all those runs in the
Asia Cup and lost to them as well. So, it's not all one sided. Generally, it's evenly contested
and there is no doubt that Pakistan have gone into the T20 World Cup with a really good bowling side,
at least, and batting as well, they're a pretty complete unit. So, they'll be particularly
disappointed going down to India, which has a team where we were talking about some little holes
here and there in terms of the team balance. Particularly in the fast-bowling department,
so overall many neutrals might have considered Pakistan to be favourite. So, this was a bit of
an upset by India, but what a match it turned out to be. Just brilliant and you're going to watch
that last over, I suppose, many times in the years to come.
Charu mentioned Kohli, Jim, and the fact that he scored an incredible innings here to get India over the line, to haul them
over the line, but he had had a pretty tough 2022 up until that point. He'd faced quite a bit of criticism, but
you just watched, feeling didn't you, that this was Kohli at his best.
Yes, he was on the stage. He was clearly enjoying it and he got away. That's the most important thing with players like Kohli,
that you get a start, you don't get a first ball LBW or a run out or something. And he's maintained
that form against the Netherlands in the next game. So, it's a very pleasing aspect, obviously,
for India, but I think for all of us because it's one of the great sights of the game to see this
maestro at his best clinking the ball over the field, through the field, over the boundary,
which he is very capable of doing. And I have a feeling that we're going to see these two teams
again in a semi-final or final. So, look forward to more of it.
As for Kohli, he had said that he believes that the 82 was his best innings ever. He cited the 82 he made against Australia in
the 2016 T20 World Cup that you might remember - that was a game that actually knocked Australia out of the
tournament. But the magnitude of this match, the situation he found himself and the team in, well
just an epic performance and it will be etched into the mind and soul of everyone who saw it.
Here in the UK, October is Black History Month. It's a dedicated time to recognise the
contribution and achievements of those of African or Caribbean heritage. And that is exactly what
we're going to do for the next few minutes here on Stumped. And we are delighted to be joined by
the first black cricketer to earn an England cap, Roland Butcher. Roland, welcome to Stumped. First
of all, I want to say congratulations, because I understand that you have been awarded the freedom
of the City of London. Tell us a bit about that. I have, yes. I was awarded the freedom of the
City of London, which for me is a great honour and privilege and something I'm very proud of.
That ceremony was held last week, and it went very well. For those who don't know, the freedom
of the City of London is a tradition that goes back 800 years and other people to have received
it are Nelson Mandela, Winston Churchill and the late Queen Elizabeth II. Roland, you are in esteemed company!
Well, you can say that when you mention those names. It definitely is,
yeah, but it's a great honour and privilege and I'm very pleased to have been awarded it.
Give us a little bit of your... well, give us a brief background, if you like, your story,
from birth to coming through and playing for England. Well, I was born in Barbados
in East Point, St Philip, which is perhaps the most eastern part of the island. A very rural
area, there's not a lot to do out there besides sport and swimming and I got very interested in
the game from a very young age. I guess I was fortunate that a family member, Basil Butcher,
who was from Ghana, but his father was one of our clan in Barbados, was an international cricketer.
I guess watching him play, not a lot live, but seeing him on videos etc. I guess that would've
helped the motivation, but I grew up there. I came to England when I was aged 13 plus.
Again, I went another rural area in Stevenage in Hertfordshire and really got an opportunity
to develop there and play for the club and then moved on to Gloucestershire as a youth
player. I was recommended by someone from our club who went to work for Gloucestershire.
And then I was sent to Lord's for a trial for the MCC young professionals,
where I met the infamous or famous Ian Botham. We were there together, spent two years at MCC.
Obviously, being at Lord's where the MCC is based, Middlesex are based there as well,
so they get a chance to see the players on offer. They selected myself, Nigel Ross and Martin
Vernon in the same year, and I think Ian Gould as well, to have a contract the following year. So,
I joined Middlesex in 1972 and stayed till 1990 and, fortunately I was able to play
for England in 1980-81. So that's pretty much the story up to that point.
Roland, nice to be talking with you. It's Jim Maxwell here in Sydney. I think it's fair to say you're seen as a trailblazer,
someone who paved the way for others. Did you realise the impact you were having at the time?
I would say, no. I think, Jim, when you get selected to play for the national team,
all you can think about is that you worked extremely hard, you've dreamed about this from
being a kid, that you want to play international cricket, so here's your opportunity to play.
I think all the other things surrounding that don't really come into play. You don't think about it.
You just think about wanting to play, wanting to play well and try and win the game and go from
there. It's only much later that the significance of my selection was made clear to me. Obviously,
people start to tell you about it and then perhaps you start to even think about it a little bit
more. So, initially, not, but later on, obviously was very significant in how I thought I needed to
do to ensure that others had the opportunity to follow me. How did you find it? Were you met with
much opposition when you were picked from fans, from fellow players, or was everyone supportive?
Well, I guess it was mixed. I think mostly, obviously Middlesex supporters actually my
first game was against Australia, which was an ODI at Edgbaston. I can't remember too much
in terms of backlash for that, but I did get one or two letters in relation to my selection to go
to the West Indies in 1981. I remember this one black guy sent me a letter and I remember it to
this day, and he said: "Dear Butcher. You have now taken black people back to the days of slavery.
Judas got 30 pieces of silver. How many are you getting?" I thought that was quite funny.
There were one or wo like that, but I think generally,
everyone was really congratulatory and wanted me to do well. And I'm sure that other people could look and see and follow.
Roland, this is Charu Sharma from Bangalore for All India Radio. Congratulations
once again on that magnificent award, the freedom of the City of London, it sounds fantastic! But
Roland, I believe you're currently on a diversity, equality, equity and inclusivity tour of the UK.
What does that involve? Well, that's part of what I've been doing this year. As you know,
I've been doing the county championship for the BBC over the summer. But in between that I've
been doing this tour of schools, universities, I've done a lot with corporate businesses as well.
We're talking about my lived experiences and working as you said, in those areas of diversity,
inclusivity, equity and equality. Generally, I'm just really trying to send a message that
this is not something to be afraid of. Our diversity is a recipe for success
and I point out the fact that I played in the Middlesex side in the 1970s, 80s and 90s. I
played in those teams that were perhaps the most diverse teams in the history of the game
of cricket and perhaps maybe the history or any sport, because if you think of the backgrounds
and nationalities and cultures and everything else that we had in that set up. I believe that was a
recipe for our success and as you know during that period, we were extremely successful. So,
I'm trying to spread the message that people need not be afraid of diversity, it really is an asset.
Roland, you mentioned coaching and four years ago when you were with us
on Stumped, we've dug it out of the archives, you did mention that black and Asian cultures aren't
quite trusted to do as professional a job as the others. Do you still believe that to be the case,
or has nothing changed? I don't think a lot has changed. I'm hoping that it will change as a
result of what's taken place, but you've only got to look at the set ups and you will see that there
are very few coaches, very few managers in any sport, not just cricket. Football, for instance, I
went to a function last week for the professional footballers - the black professional footballers
partnership - and they are campaigning for the same thing because in the Premier League, they've
got 43% of players who are black, but when it comes to management and coaching etc, that comes
down to 4.4%. So, you can see that even though the Premier League is populated with top class
black players, they are not represented on the touchline, or in the boardrooms etc. So,
a lot hasn't changed. That's the case with more sports and it needs to change because
as I said I think diversity is something that has worked for me. I know it has worked and I believe
that given the opportunity, that are a lot more minorities that can certainly step into those
important roles and that in itself will then give motivation to others to believe
that they can achieve as well. At the end of the day the whole country will benefit.
That is Roland Butcher, who was the first black cricketer to play for England. Well,
that's all we've got time for on this week's Stumped, so, my thanks to Jim Maxwell and
Charu Sharma and all of you for listening and we'll see you again next time. Until then, bye bye.