W: Sara, welcome to Waterstones first of all.
SP: Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure. Sex, Power, Money. Where shall we start?
Err.... it's funny because I've been doing lots of PR
interviews and we have to keep omitting the sex. So they go, your book's called Sex Power Money...
let's talk about power! Because it's like breakfast TV or on the radio.
W: Well in that case let's start with sex SP: Yeah we could start with sex
So originally I'd written this book called Animal which is about the
female body and how its treated in culture and I had this idea that I would
do a second book that would just be about the male body and how the male
body is treated in culture. And I had this kind of joke with my editor, it would be
called Manimal, and it'll be the other side it will just be dealing with men.
And I thought oh in that book I'll deal with pornography cuz I
didn't in my first book and it'll just be a chapter about pornography and how
most of the people who watch it are men and whether there's kind of evolutionary
reasons. As I started researching into pornography I realized number one I
didn't understand anything, that I was incredibly naive, that to write about it
without doing extensive research would be a folly.
Because I would be repeating things that I had read having never really seen any.
And then when I started reading the studies about pornography and when they
have tried to find answers to questions like does it make men more misogynist,
has it become more aggressive in the last 10 years, things like that, I
realised that some of the things that we all assume are true haven't been
proven. It was a much more of a grey area than I'd realised. And then as I was
researching, the book completely changed shape which can
happen, much to obviously your editor's chagrin: actually is going to take me two
years and everything I said to you in the pitch is wrong, that kind of thing.
W: So you're quite honest about the fact as you go through, you're
doing a lot of research and there are some some facts that you're
presented with and you kind of go, I don't like the idea of that, but
it's just a fact and that is what the research shows.
So the trouble with studies is sometimes for all of us that the results of them don't fit with what
we presume. And quite often that means well the study's never 100%, especially
when something's along like sex or gender lines. Just because 60% of
women - that still means 40% of women aren't. And also
all of us are individuals. Just because that study of 200 people found
those results actually doesn't say anything about you. Quite often my
hackles would rise and go I don't display jealousy in that way or
that's not how my sexuality feels for me. And so I think it's really quite
healthy for all of us to go we have a subjective experience and studies are
never saying you, a man, are this, or that. But sometimes it's hard not to be confronted by things.
I use the example of a petition that was going
around when Ann Summers the underwear shop were doing a joint campaign
with Pornhub in terms of like sexy nights in and there's a list of titles
of pornography and even those, I found a lot of them very upsetting. Because of
the violence, anger, misogyny and then some of the acts involved. Even if
everyone is absolutely consenting and it's part of a day's work I still don't
want to watch them. But then that's true of some films, like action films or
fighty films. Or there's just certain things that I don't like watching.
Aggression in general actually. But I did think, I know what I'll do I'll find a
couple of the worst porns and I'll just watch them and then I'll write about my
reaction. And I had it on a post-it note on my computer and I kept avoiding it
and I just realised oh I'm not going to. Like I wouldn't watch two girls one cup,
which a few younger people had said to
me when I was researching oh that was my first experience of pornography.
It's the first time I knew that porn was on the internet was at school and we
watched two girls one cup. And again you read the description and I go, nah, I'm all right,
I can imagine. I could imagine it but I don't need to put myself through it.
W: After that, all of the things that you have watched and the
research you done into the actual statistics, you mentioned that
fear of pornography making men more misogynist, would you say that you
now feel more relaxed about pornography or worse about it?
I don't think that it's that I feel more relaxed or worse I think it's really interesting to know
what has been studied because as my mum made the very valid point just because
something hasn't been proved it doesn't mean it's not true. And so actually
what I felt like was there has to be so much more study
and rather than us having all of these kind of collective fears and
what's happening to young people or what it might do, we have to study it so that
we can kind of educate them alongside.
You're looking at sex work but also the
transactional nature of all sex and relationships in a way. And you and I
share a bugbear which is the fetishization of the bill-paying on First Dates.
Which always makes me mad.
SP: Yes well apparently I found out they
give them money to go on it but they always give the money to the man which
actually makes it even worse. As in because in TV land...
When I first noticed it or started watching the show I realised they were they were
filming it in a way so you always saw that moment where in heterosexual couples the
man-made this flourish of don't worry I'm going to get this. And I thought what an
odd moment. And then I started to realise, oh it's in there because it's supposed
to look like what a nice guy he is or what a lucky woman she is. I thought
isn't this strange that we're getting this very insidious message at the same
time as as a society we're talking about perhaps the wage gap between the genders
or perhaps certain jobs that are underpaid because the majority of people who
do them are women like midwifery or nursing. I thought how unhealthy to
have that conversation going on when this is kind of mainstream television.
It's really odd the pushback against it because there are absolutely lots of
women who 100% believe that it's just a nice thing to do.
It's just what should be done. It just gives you a little nice feeling. It's
just one of those roles. But we really do have to deconstruct those roles, even
if we think there's no harm in it and it's quite romantic. I think there is harm in it.
W: As you say it reinforces not only an old-fashioned idea but also this,
you talk about how capitalism has a real part to play in how relationships can be,
not ruined, but the nature of them becomes transactional.
Yes, well marriage itself was always transactional and that's what's
odd. Because for most of us in our society now we think of that as a
romantic decision but all of the structure of it is is the remnant again
in heterosexual couples of men used to earn enough to provide for a family
and women essentially went from being their father's property to their
husband's. And while that isn't the lived truth for lots of people now, that is still the
kind of the ceremony. And even the idea that I mean I don't know anyone
whose husband didn't propose to them. So there's lots of conversations
culturally about equality but still it's up to the man. And he has to kind of make
an effort. He has to spend his own money on jewelry. And it's these things that I
think need questioning at the very least. I'm not saying you have to
have a full blooded revolution but I think it's really good to go like oh
why is that a man's job? And also I think that men are getting very
conflicting messages about masculinity. And I think if I was a man I'd be very
resentful of the idea that I have to spend two months of my wages... why?
If she wants a ring, buy a ring! I'm not telling her what to do!
I think one of the biggest revelations, although obviously it's been going on for a very long time,
I think people are very aware of it, was how people who have a position of power
can exploit it. So it doesn't mean that power naturally makes you a horrible
person, it doesn't mean that there's nothing to enjoy about dominance, it
doesn't mean you can't be a fantastic leader, all of those kind of things. And
again it doesn't have to be a kind of gendered behavior, that's what I think
is really healthy about talking about power, rather than men in power, for instance.
Because what becomes clear is that if you have a huge power disparity,
occasionally it's very possible that the other person at the other end of that
wedge is vulnerable. And so certain situations I think we're writing better
rule books now. For instance like bosses and employees. But in particular people
who are by the nature, the height of their power and position, means that
there's a huge circle of people around them who are aiding and abetting the
exploitation. So when you get to your Epstein's and this kind of situation I
think what people find fascinating is oh this isn't one bad man operating by
himself, it affects so many other people.
And it all becomes so interlaced then because either if he goes down, they go
down with him. Or just they don't feel like they can ever question the bad
behavior because they need to earn money to put food on
the table. And I think that's what's quite insidious quite often and
terrifying the idea that you've got lots of good people going yeah but I can't
put my neck out about this or I'm done.