- We had signs that said things like,
'Thank God for dead soldiers,'
and 'Pray for more dead kids.'
We were celebrating
and singing at the top of our lungs
while people were going in to mourn.
And, of course, now that seems insane to me.
Hi, my name is Megan,
and my heretical belief
is that even the people who seem to be
the worst, most destructive people in the world,
are human beings who deserve
compassion and empathy,
if we want to find a way to change their minds.
- Radicals, dissidents, rebels and misfits.
You can call them whatever you like.
But, what if they're right?
- Hi, I'm Megan Phelps-Roper,
and I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church,
and I've spent the last nine years writing
and speaking about that upbringing,
and what it has taught me
about American public life today.
- What were some of the beliefs that—
for people who aren't familiar with Westboro.
- We believed that God hated gay people,
and people of any other religion.
We literally believe that
everybody outside of our church
was, was hellbound.
We thought that God had given us
this unique access to the truth.
We were so certain that we had the right answer
about every topic, and that everybody else was wrong,
and we could marshal all of the facts and evidence
in support of those beliefs.
But, what that perspective always will miss
is that there is a massive amount of information
and experience outside of yours.
We do not know everything,
and that kind of humility is kind of
in short supply these days
because, we have,
we have these sides that have become
so polarized that we, you know,
define ourselves in opposition to one another.
If one side believes this, then it clearly must be wrong
because they're wrong about everything else.
Like, the way that we think about it
and talk about it is in these very
stark, black and white terms
where the good side is obvious
and so is the evil.
And we, of course, whoever we are,
we are always the good.
We are all living in some version of Westboro now.
The things that people used to see
as so extreme about Westboro:
things like celebrating death, for instance.
You know, Westboro regularly celebrated death
and tragedy as the condign 'Wrath of God,' right?
It was deserved, right?
You deserve this horrible thing that's happening to you
because you are evil,
because you have the wrong beliefs,
because you've adopted the wrong positions.
And you see this on Twitter,
but it was also in this, um, L.A. Times column recently.
Uh, like, "Is it ghoulish
to celebrate the deaths of anti-vaxxers?
Yes, probably. But it's still necessary."
Like, those kinds of sentiments are regularly now
espoused all over Twitter.
The kind of verbage, the way that we think
and talk about the other side—
you know, thinking that they are either evil
or stupid or delusional.
That was absolutely how we did at Westboro.
It's disturbing because once words cease to be
useful in addressing conflict
and coming to compromise,
all you're left with is violence.
And seeing the rise of political violence
in this country is disturbing.
And I, I think it's a—
it's a tide that we should absolutely be
trying to turn in the opposite direction.
I think the most important lesson is that
even people who seem to be horrible
are humans who will be better reached
by kindness and generosity and compassion.
That didn't use to be controversial,
but now that's seen as,
you know, any call for civility is talked about
as if it's, as if I'm trying to excuse people
for advocating for and defending bad ideas,
when really it's about being effective.
So even though it's difficult,
if you want to change things,
if you actually want to be effective,
that is the way forward.
But, also, sometimes we are the ones
whose beliefs need to change.
Sometimes, like, the people who like
those of us who are like
so sure that we have the right answers
and that we need to go to these people
and we're going to change their minds by,
you know, being, you know, kind and empathetic, like,
yes, that's part of the equation,
but the other part of the equation is
maybe they see something that you don't.
Maybe there's something in their perspective
that should be changing yours.
- I think we're out of time.
Otherwise, I would keep talking about this for hours.
- Oh, so sorry.
Don't hurt me.
Does it still sound OK with the thing on?
- It sounds great.
- OK, perfect.